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Somebody ought to say something: the role of the church in facilitating dialogue about race, racism, and diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts

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Somebody Ought To Say Something: The Role of the Church in Facilitating
Discussion About Race, Racism, and Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Efforts

Carol Ross-Burnett

Rossier School of Education
University of Southern California
A dissertation submitted to the faculty
in partial fulfillment of the requirements for the degree of
Doctor of Education

May 2023

© Copyright by Carol Ross-Burnett 2023
All Rights Reserved

The Committee for Carol Ross-Burnett certifies the approval of this Dissertation

Dr. Sharoni Little
Dr. Atheneus Ocampo
Dr. Esther Kim, Committee Chair

Rossier School of Education
University of Southern California
2023

iv

Abstract
Racial silence, a phenomenon I define as a lack of candid discussion about race and racism,
exists in organizations (Barndt, 2011; Sue, 2005; Tatum, 1992, 2001). Because of ongoing demands for
racial and social justice, organizational leaders are being pressed to talk about race and racism (which I
call racial dialogue), and to make space for and encourage such dialogue (Acosta & Ackerman-Barker,
2017). My research explores the role of Christian churches in the United States in facilitating discussion
about race and racism, and how racial dialogue impacts diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts. Although
these issues extend to communication between White people and other people of color, my research
focuses on racial dialogue between White people and Black people only in the context of Christian
churches in the United States. In this study, qualitative data, (e.g., individual interviews, observations,
and artifacts that include print and digital media) revealed relevant narratives, and explored levels of
discomfort between Black and White pastors within predominantly Black and predominantly White
churches when talking about race and racism. Interviews also captured perceptions and realities about
the success or lack of diversity, equity and inclusion efforts in churches represented in the study. Pastors
have the authority to instruct themselves and their congregations on the biblical mandates associated
with racial equity, to provide training for church leaders and congregants to help them accept church
history, and to explore how their churches can advance racial justice in this country. Study findings
yielded recommendations that provide pastors and their congregations with a framework to pursue
racial dialogue so that they can begin to tackle the tough problems associated with individual bias and
institutional racism. The hope is for racial dialogue to be embraced within the church, and extend
beyond the church walls into personal and professional settings.
Keywords: church, racial silence; racial dialogue; racism, systemic racism, diversity, equity,
inclusion

v

Dedication
For Mama, an eternal role model, driver of my thirst for learning, my quest for higher education, and my
pursuit of excellence. Mama overcame all odds in the Jim Crow South to better herself and provide for
her family. My life was forever changed when she sent me at fourteen years old to Berkeley, California to
live with her sister after the death of my uncle. Mama’s generosity of spirit and love for her sister – and
for me – led me to this place and time. I am forever grateful.

To every family member, friend and loved one who prayed for me, prompted me, and praised me in my
pursuit of this long-held dream, thank you. To the one who held my hand for the latter half of this
journey, thank you for the unexpected blessing you have been in my life.

vi

Acknowledgments
My experience growing up Black in the Jim Crow South is the foundation for my passion about
addressing race and racism. Legalized or de facto segregation mandated where I went to school, where I
could eat, where I could sit, what water fountains and bathrooms I could use, and much more.
Employment opportunities for Black people were intentionally limited, especially professional positions.
It was understood that Black people could only hold certain kinds of jobs, which typically meant
domestic chores for the women. Except for teachers and a few beauticians, Black women in my small
town were largely relegated to cleaning the homes and caring for the children of White families. Almost
every Black woman I knew as a child did this kind of work, including my mother.

I looked at this doctorate program for six years before I made the leap to apply and go back to school. I
loved every moment, even the perplexing ones, and thank all of my professors and classmates in OCL
Cohort 18 who made this academic decathlon a winning one for me! Each professor uniquely shed light
on familiar subjects in a new way, or deftly guided me through unfamiliar terrain. This program gave me
the opportunity to test out how to bring my creative skills to bear in the essential work of anti-racism,
and racial justice. I am excited about how I will use music, speaking, writing, and song as I continue to
work with organizations and individuals that want to become better versions of themselves.

Carol Ross-Burnett is an experienced diversity, equity and inclusion professional with over thirty years of
experience in the field. She is a seasoned speaker, published author, and personal and professional
coach who is CEO of her own consulting practice, CRB Global LLC. Carol is also a singer and songwriter
who founded the Platform Workshop for Christian singers, songwriters, authors, and speakers in 2015.
She also founded and facilitates the Women in Creative Arts Ministry and Leadership support group for
women who are prominent in those fields.

vii

Table of Contents

Abstract ........................................................................................................................................................ iv
Dedication ..................................................................................................................................................... v
Acknowledgments ........................................................................................................................................ vi
Table of Contents ........................................................................................................................................ vii
List of Tables ................................................................................................................................................. x
List of Figures ............................................................................................................................................... xi
Chapter One: Overview of the Study ............................................................................................................ 1
Context and Background of the Study ............................................................................................. 2
Purpose of the Project and Research Questions ........................................................................... 11
Importance of the Study ................................................................................................................ 12
Overview of Theoretical Framework and Methodology ................................................................ 13
Definitions ...................................................................................................................................... 16
Organization of the Dissertation .................................................................................................... 17
Chapter Two: Review of the Literature ....................................................................................................... 18
Race and Racism in the United States ........................................................................................... 18
The Historical Role of U.S. Churches in Racial Justice Movements ............................................... 21
Segregation in Churches Today ..................................................................................................... 23
Church Leadership and Antiracism ................................................................................................ 23
Organizational Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Efforts in the United States ................................. 25
Communication About Race & Racism .......................................................................................... 29
Conceptual Framework .................................................................................................................. 32
Summary ........................................................................................................................................ 34
Chapter Three: Methodology .......................................................................................................................... 35
Research Questions ....................................................................................................................... 35

viii

Overview of Design ........................................................................................................................ 37
Research Setting ............................................................................................................................ 37
The Researcher .............................................................................................................................. 37
Data Sources .................................................................................................................................. 39
Interview Participants .................................................................................................................... 41
Instrumentation ............................................................................................................................. 45
Data Collection Procedures ........................................................................................................... 46
Data Analysis .................................................................................................................................. 46
Trustworthiness and Credibility ..................................................................................................... 47
Ethics .............................................................................................................................................. 48
Chapter Four: Findings ................................................................................................................................ 50
Black Pastors’ Views on Race and Racism ...................................................................................... 50
Understanding of DEI, Racism in the United States, and DEI Terminology Usage in Church
Settings .......................................................................................................................................... 60
Churches Are Organizations ........................................................................................................... 64
How Do Pastors Deal With These Challenges? .............................................................................. 67
Research Question 1: How Are Race and Racism Presented and Discussed in Churches
that Serve Predominantly Black, and Predominantly White Congregations? ............................... 67
Research Question 2: How Do Narratives and Counternarratives About Race and Racism
by Black Pastors Affect Pastors and their Churches? .................................................................... 72
Research Question 3: How Does Racial Dialogue Impact DEI Initiatives in Churches and
Beyond? ......................................................................................................................................... 75
Summary ........................................................................................................................................ 77
Chapter Five: Recommendations ................................................................................................................ 79
Discussion of Findings .................................................................................................................... 79
Racial Dialogue and Racial Justice in Churches..............................................................................86

ix

Recommendations for Practice...................................................................................................... 89
Limitations and Delimitations ........................................................................................................ 92
Recommendations for Future Research ........................................................................................ 93
Conclusion ...................................................................................................................................... 95
References ..................................................................................................................................... 97
Appendix A ................................................................................................................................... 113

x

List of Tables
Table 1: The Evolution of Diversity from Representation to Equity and Respect…………………………………10
Table 2: Pastor Demographics………………………………………………………………………………………………………….… 42
Table 3: Pastor’s Age………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………… ..42
Table 4: Years at Current Church…………………………………………………………...…………………………………………..43
Table 5: Total Years in Ministry………………………………………………………………………………………………………… ..43
Table 6: Church Location…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………… .44
Table 7: Church Attendance and Membership……………………………………………………………………………………44
Table 8: DEI Elements on Church Websites…………………………………………………………………………………………61
Table 9: Pastor Responses Regarding DEI Initiatives in their Churches…………………………………………… …..63
Table 10: Pastor Responses to Support Needed for Regular Racial Dialogue………………………………………6 7
Table 11: A Logic Model for Achieving Racial Dialogue in Churches……………………………………………….…..92

xi

List of Figures
Figure 1: Talking About Race and Racism...................................................................................................33
Figure 2: How Black Pastors Respond to Racial Dialogue in White Environments…………………………………..52
Figure 3: Four Existing Motivators of Racial Dialogue in Churches…………………………………..…………………….68
Figure 4: The 4Ls – A Model for Promoting Racial Dialogue and Pursusing Racial Justice in Churches ..... 87
Figure 5: The 4Ls Model Mapped to the Study’s Theoretical Framework ……………… ………………………………88

1

Chapter One: Overview of the Study
In 2020, millions of people around the world the viewed the viral video of George Floyd’s
murder on May 25
th
by a White police officer who kept his knee on Floyd’s neck for nine minutes and
twenty-nine seconds (Barbot, 2020; Krieger, 2020; Yudhi & Tanto, 2022). The cell phone video of Floyd’s
murder was released on May 26
th
, and by May 27
th
, protests demanding police reform and racial justice
subsequently erupted in the United States, and then internationally as diverse groups of protestors took
to the streets to express their shock and outrage at Floyd’s murder, and vocalize their support for anti-
Black racism (defined as “[o]ne who is supporting an antiracist policy through their actions or expressing
an antiracist idea”; Kendi, 2019), and the Black Lives Matter (BLM) movement (Mendes, 2021; Phoenix,
2022). The fact that Floyd’s murder was ano ther in a long string of Black people dying at the hands of
police in the United States (Dávila, 2017; Krieger, 2020), and that much, if not all of the world was on
pandemic lockdown with access to viewing the video made Floyd’s death a tipping point in th e struggle
for racial justice (Barbot, 2020; Creary et al., 2021; Rosa, 2019).
The Sunday after Floyd’s death, a prominent Black pastor with significant connections to
influential White evangelical church leaders used his virtual church service as a platform to call out
White evangelical pastors about their silence in the face of these events (Ulmer, 2020):
2020…here we are again! Headlines, newscasts… with a lack of the demonstration of unity and
humanity…the lack of justice…fairness…equality! Less than 24 hours ago my city was out in
demonstrations…police out in riot gear. Here we go again! The old deacons in the church when
the pastor was preaching used to say, “Somebody ought to say something!”… When will it
stop…? I’m listening for my White evangelical friends…. I want my White evangelical friends to
stand up on this one, shout out on this one. My pain is enhanced by my White evangelical
brothers who won’t say anything!

2

Bishop Kenneth Ulmer’s an guish about the silence of his clerical colleagues in the face of a
horrendous act, and his call to action were clear: “Say something!” In this study, I address what I call
racial dialogue, and racial silence. I define racial dialogue as discussions about issues related to race and
racism. Racial silence is a term I use to describe the lack of dialogue about race and racism. I adapted the
latter term from existing terminology in the field regarding employee silence – the inclination of
employees to remain silent about important issues (Baker, 2019; Martinez, 2019; Toegel & Barsoux
2019), and what DiAngelo (2018) calls “white silence” (p. 5), a resistance to talking about race and
racism. I aim to discover what impact, if any, racial dialogue and racial silence have on diversity, equity
and inclusion (DEI) or otherwise named efforts in churches. My focus is on the impact of racial dialogue
and racial silence on Black pastors and their churches, and I include information gathered from White
pastors in an effort to understand these phenomena better.
Context and Background of the Study
Organizations have typically avoided conversations about race and racism because of the
discomfort associated with such discussions (DiAngelo, 2011; Foldy & Buckley, 2014; Harper, 2012;
Rhode & Ricca, 2015; Roberts & Mayo, 2019; Sue, 2005; Tatum, 2001, 1992). While other organizations
scrambled in 2020 to craft public statements about their commitment to DEI and anti-Black racism,
White church leaders have long remained largely silent on such issues (Barndt, 2011).
White Discomfort Talking About Race
Data support findings that employee silence, or the unwillingness to talk to those with the
authority to do something about difficult issues in organizations, is pervasive (Morrison, 2014).
According to Sue (2005), for White people, revealing full historical contexts will always surface
information that conflicts with White self-identity and dominant U.S. values, and these factors are a
primary source of White resistance. Detert and Edmonson (2011) conducted interviews in a large
organization that expressed concern when 50% of their employees responded in a company-wide survey
3

that they did not feel they could safely speak up at work. Almost 30% of the employees pointed to
concerns about fairness in the workplace as the reason they did not speak up, and some believed that
speaking up about race was particularly risky.
Defining racism and white supremacy as the actions of White supremacist groups and the
horrific acts they commit has allowed White people to ignore the prevalence of structural racism, which
has been “conscience soothing” (Anderson, 2016, p. 100). Colorblindness, or defining oneself as
indifferent to race and skin color, blocks communication about race (Barndt, 2011; Hearn, 2009), and
supports the idea of meritocracy that erroneously suggests anyone can take advantage of all
opportunities in this country, regardless of race, and ethnicity (Anderson, 2016). Shevin-Sapon (2017)
observed that children are taught colorblindness as “evidence of lack of prejudice” (p. 38), and that
colorblindness conflates talking about race with being racist and desensitizes people to racial injustice.
Adherence to a colorblind perspective enables White people to avoid accountability for individual and
systemic racism (Bonilla-Silva, 2015). Churches adhere to the notion of colorblindness or sameness and
traditionally do not deal with issues of race and racism (Barndt, 2011).
The Black Church
The Black Church, which I define in this study as churches with predominantly Black
congregations, has historically played a major role in addressing issues of racial justice (and injustice) in
the United States (Tisby, 2019). The Civil Rights Movement was supported by faith-based organizations,
led by an ordained minister and scholar, and preached from the platforms of Black churches across the
country (Anderson, 2016; Pew Research Center, 2021). Some believe such moral leadership in this
country regarding racial justice has always been, and should continue to be rooted in the church. Others
think it is too political and divisive, and pastors should not talk about race, racism, and inequality from
the pulpit (Brandt, 2015).
4

To explore these issues, I use critical race theory (CRT) as the theoretical framework for my
study. Before I continue, I take a moment to urge those who have previously formed opinions about
CRT, whether positive or negative, to sideline those opinions for the time that it takes you to read this
dissertation, and to accompany me on this journey as I inquire how Christians in predominantly Black,
and predominantly White churches can work together to have honest, fruitful discussions about how to
make individual lives, organizations – and ultimately, this nation – better.
The Backlash Against Diversity, Equity and Inclusion
Likewise, DEI has been consistently in the news over recent months as legislators and their
supporters promote or enact laws to ban it from K-12 and college level public education settings
(Chronicle of Higher Education, March 23, 2023). The Chronicle daily updates a DEI “legislation tracker”
that to date reported 28 bills in 17 states had been introduced. According to The Chronicle, these bills
propose anti-DEI measures to restrict DEI offices and staff, mandatory DEI training, diversity statements,
and identity-based preferences in hiring and admissions. Consequently, any discussion of DEI warrants
noting the growing backlash against it.
Conversely, a recent brouhaha arose at Stanford University law school when a judge known for
his far-right rulings was invited to speak by a student group. As the ensuing back-and-forth between the
judge and students who vociferously opposed his presence spiraled out of control, the associate dean
for diversity, equity, and inclusion was called to the lectern to calm the crowd and invite them to
embrace a more civil discourse. Although the associate dean supported the judge’s right to be heard on
campus, she also spoke in support of the opposing views of students, and was placed on leave for her
comments that appeared to criticize the judge’s judicial stance. Afterwards she wrote an op -ed piece for
the Wall Street Journal (2023) with a subheading that included the phrase, “We have to stop b laming,
and start listening”. She went on to frame DEI as something that can, and must coexist with free speech.
5

Diversity, equity and inclusion plans must have clear goals that lead to greater inclusion and
belonging for all community members. How we strike a balance between free speech and
diversity, equity and inclusion is worthy of serious, thoughtful and civil discussion. Free speech
and diversity, equity and inclusion are means to an end, and one that I think many people can
actually agree on: to live in a country with liberty and justice for all its people.
In his book, How To Fight Racism (2020), Black Christian historian and theologian Jemar Tisby
makes an appeal for open-mindedness much more succinctly than I. He underscores that, “Preexisting
views about racial justice are shaped by political parties, religious affiliations, and polarized visions of
the world as it should be” (p. 12). He calls these differences major divisions among people who view
racial justice issues differently, and stresses that his purpose is not to pit people against one another.
That is also not my purpose as I ask the reader to set aside any previously formed opinions about CRT
and DEI that deem them controversial. Let us instead listen intently to the voices of the Black pastors
highlighted in this study, and hear from the White pastors who must be collaborators if authentic racial
dialogue is to be achieved.
The Persisting Impact of Racism in the United States
Racism has had devastating effects on Black people, and other people of color in this country
(American Psychological Association, 2021; Bowleg, 2020). Based on the highly visible and alarming
convergence of racial inequities with the COVID-19 pandemic and police brutality, 20 cities and counties,
and three states set about declaring racism as a “public health crisis” in 2020 (Krieger, 2020, p. 1621).
Yet, progress made by DEI in the United States to address the consequences of racism has been slow, as
demonstrated by persistent, disparate outcomes for Black people in hiring, promotion, and retention
across professions and industries (Bernstein et al., 2019; Calvard, 2021; Lee, 2019; Williams & Wilson,
2019). Bernstein et al. wrote that there is little understanding of the purpose, goals, and strategies that
should be used to achieve success around organizational diversity. Beyond the workplace, disparities
6

persist for Black, Indigenous, and other people of color (BIPOC) in broader socioeconomic arenas that
include education, health, housing, and wealth (Anderson, 2016; Krieger, 2020); and Black people
typically experience such disparities at higher rates than other groups (Williams & Wilson, 2019). A 2019
McKinsey & Company report found racial inequities in four areas: family wealth, family income, family
savings and consumption, and the community context. These areas encompass financial wealth gaps as
demonstrated by 42% of Black homeownership compared to 73% of White home ownership, and Black
people holding only 15% of top corporate leadership roles (Noel et al., 2019). Black people are evaluated
more harshly in the workplace; Black unemployment rates are consistently higher than those of White
people; Black people have more extended periods of unemployment (McKinsey, 2019), and earn less
than White people over their lifetimes (Noel et al., 2019; National Bureau of Economic Research, 2015).
Inequities in healthcare for Black people are evident, and food and rent insecurities were highest for
Black people during the COVID-19 pandemic (Krieger, 2020).
Although organizations express and demonstrate a commitment to DEI to address these and
other related issues, progress has been minimal, and in some cases, gains have been lost (Bernstein et
al., 2019; Dobbin & Kalev, 2016; Giles, 2020). In addition to social and racial justice mandates,
demographic shifts in the United States make it clear that to remain competitive, organizations must
deal with conversations about race and racism (Giles, 2020). The 2021 report by the Wharton School
(Creary et al., 2021) suggests that the business case is insufficient. For people to feel free to discuss race
and culture, they must experience environmental safety that includes feeling safe enough to be
themselves, to speak their minds without fear of repercussion, and to believe that their racial and ethnic
identities will be welcomed (Foldy & Buckley, 2014). Foldy and Buckley added that additional
environmental safety is necessary: people must participate in learning that enables and embraces
different perspectives to move communication and creativity forward.
7

DEI has largely been implemented in organizations through diversity training that is intended to
change behavior. Until recently, less attention was given to focusing on systemic racism in workplace
policies and practices (Deo, 2021). A focus on anti-racism, and dismantling systemic racism has been
acknowledged as critical for the success of DEI (Chang et al., 2019). Chang and associates conducted a
survey of 3,000 employees in a large, global organization to measure the outcome of diversity training,
and concluded that diversity training should not be treated as “a silver bullet ” (para. 16). They
recommended that multiple and sustained DEI efforts should focus on transforming the underlying
policies and practices that hinder success for marginalized employees in the organization. Addressing
the challenges DEI efforts face requires discussing what role race and racism play in creating them
(Helsel, 2017).
The American Psychological Association’s 2021 apology for its compli city in perpetuating
systemic racism and associated ills in the field, and in historically centering whiteness corroborates
DiAngelo’s claim (2018) that White people have not been taught to pay attention to how racism has
granted them advantages and power. DiAngelo (2011) believes that White people are therefore
uncomfortable framing racism as something they must take responsibility for. This “conspiracy of
silence” (Sue, 2005, p. 102) helps to protect White people from the truth of this country’s past invo lving
slavery. Sue (2005) elaborated by saying:
We conspire with one another to avoid discussions of race and racism by denying that we see
color or race. The denial of color is really a denial of differences. The denial of differences is
really a denial of power and privilege. The denial of privilege is really a denial of personal
benefits that accrue to us by virtue of racial inequities. The denial that we profit from racism is
really a denial of responsibility for our racism. Last, the denial of our racism is really a denial of
the necessity to act against racism (p. 111).
8

DiAngelo (2011) labeled the discomfort and resistance of White people to talk about racism as
“white fragility” (p. 56). She defined it as an emotional inability to address racism beca use most White
people have never had to address it. DiAngelo (2011) posits that White people who adhere to the
definition of contemporary racism see it as the covert behavior of bad people, or the abhorrent behavior
of white supremacists, and groups like the Ku Klux Klan. Since White people see themselves as moral
people with good intentions who would not discriminate against others because of race, they are fearful
of being labeled as racist, and vehemently or otherwise resist any discussion that would frame them in
that way (DiAngelo, 2011; Sue, 2005).
The Evolution of DEI
Over the past three years, public recognition of DEI has come to the forefront like never before
as the global pandemic made highly visible the harm and injustices that Black people and other people
of color have long suffered as a result of systemic racism (Ferdman, 2020; Niishi, 2021; Reny & Newman,
2022). Worldwide and sustained coverage when the world was watching the George Floyd murder, and
the revisiting of many other acts of violence against Black people led to outrage, global protests, and
demands placed upon organization and government leaders to make public statements denouncing
anti-Blackness, to reveal and reinforce their DEI efforts and progress, and to express their support in
financial and other tangible ways (Creary et al., 2021; Ferdman, 2020; Forbes, 2020; Reny & Newman,
2022).
The foretelling of DEI originated out of federal and state mandates that centered on race and
gender, and that were designed to address the accumulated effects of racism and sexism in this country
(Creary et al., 2021; Gale Encyclopedia of U.S. Economic History, 2015). Those legislative mandates,
known as affirmative action, were a precursor to what we know today as diversity (Kennedy, 2010). The
path toward achieving the goal of DEI began earnestly as organizations in the United States responded
to the business case for diversity, and started exploring how diversity could be achieved in their settings
9

(Creary et al., 2021). Both the moral and business cases for DEI have long been widely acknowledged,
and accepted as necessary for employee engagement and overall business success (Creary et al., 2021).
Cox (1994) defined diversity as “the representation in one social system of people with distinctly
different group affiliations of cultural significance” (p. 4). Organizations initially focused on race and
ethnicity, and gender (Creary et al., 2021). However, that approach has evolved further over the years to
include numerous other aspects of diversity, with the intent of being more inclusive by recognizing and
valuing the diversity that all groups bring to an organization (Armstrong, 2019). As a result of two
studies, Chen and Hamilton (2006) found that White people consider representation as evidence of
diversity, but BIPOC participants required both representation and social acceptance as necessary
indicators.
As organizations discovered that representation alone did not cure the challenges they faced
regarding diversity, equity emerged as an essential component (Creary et al., 2021). Armstrong (2019)
defined equity as an organization’s commitment to “fair treatment, access, opportunity, and
advancement for all…achieved through eliminating visible and invisible barriers that have blocked
opportunity, growth and the development of certain groups...” (p. 2).
Organizations subsequently added inclusion as a third prong of their efforts (Creary et al., 2021).
To achieve inclusion, organizations review, change, and/or eliminate policies, practices, and procedures
that prevent the full participation of groups traditionally excluded, or expected to conform to the
prevailing organizational culture (Creary et al., 2021). Inclusion places responsibility for disparate
outcomes between groups on the organization, rather than attributing such outcomes to individuals or
groups.
Simply stated, diversity is all of the different voices within an organization; inclusion is making
sure every voice is heard and valued; and equity is how the organization equips those different voices to
reach their full potential (Love, 2020). Today, DEI has been further expanded to incorporate other
10

concepts, and is continuously transforming to accommodate new understandings in the field. Creary et
al. (2018) further described the path such efforts take as “DIBER”, an acronym for diversity, inclusion,
belonging, equity and respect (p. 4), and suggested that the adoption of each concept is tied to social
movements. I added affirmative action (AA) to this timeline as a precursor to diversity. A timeline for the
evolving state of DIBER (including AA) is shown below in Table 1.
Table 1
The Evolution of DEI: From Representation to Equity and Respect

Affirmative
action
Diversity Inclusion Belonging Equity Respect
Government
mandates
Representation Managing
diversity
Employee
wellness
Fairness and
access
Anti-
harassment/
workplace
civility
Affirmative
action
mandates to
correct
historical
harms. Moral
imperative.
Recruiting and
hiring a diverse
workforce. Goal
is to increase
representation.
Business
Imperative.
Acknowledging
and valuing
diverse
perspectives.
Leverage DEI to
achieve
organizational
goals.
Addressing
psychological
and physical
needs. Concern
for the whole
person.
Removing or
modifying
policies and
practices that
undergird
systemic
racism.
Creating a
workplace free
of harassment.
Avoid lawsuits;
encourage
goodwill.
Focus on hiring
“qualified”
women and
minorities.
Focus on
improving the
economic
bottom line.
Focus on
inclusion. Goal
is diverse
employee
retention.
Focus on
community.
Introduction of
bias
interrupters.
Focus on
equitable
access for all
employees.
Focus on civil
behavior; both
expected and
enforced.
1964 to
early 1990s
Early 1980s to
late 1990s
Late 1990s to
early 2000s
Mid to late
2010s
2010s Present day

Note. Adapted from “Improving organizational effectiveness through the use of evidence-based
diversity, equity and inclusion practices” by Creary, S. J., Rothbard, N., & Scruggs, J., 2021, Wharton
School of the University of Pennsylvania (https://www.wharton.upenn.edu/wp-
content/uploads/2021/05/Applied-Insights-Lab-Report.pdf).
11

Purpose of the Project and Research Questions
This study aims to examine if engagement in honest and direct dialogue about race and racism
in organizations positively affects DEI efforts on individual and/or organizational levels. My research
explores these questions by examining the role of Christian churches in the United States in facilitating
honest dialogue between White people and Black people about race and racism, and how such dialogue
may impact DEI efforts in the Christian church and beyond. For this study, churches are viewed as
microcosms of organizations in the broader U.S. society. As Burns et al. (2014) noted, “[L]leadership
does not begin and end at the church door. Christians are called to conduct leadership in government,
commerce, schools, neighborhoods, families, parachurch ministries and a myriad of other contexts” (p.
9).
Christian church scholar Korie L. Edwards (2008) studied Black and White churches, and wrote
that the church is uniquely positioned to promote interracial dialogue. In addition, Edwards felt that
Christian beliefs move Christians to support their convictions that racial diversity is the right thing to do.
However, others point out that although the White evangelical church in the United States has been
challenged via present day and prior year calls to speak up and address anti-Black racism within the
Christian church , these calls have often gone unheeded (Dupont, 2018).
The research questions posed are:
1. How are race and racism presented and discussed in churches that serve predominantly
Black, and predominantly White congregations?
2. How do narratives and counternarratives about race and racism by Black pastors affect Black
and White pastors, and their congregations?
3. How does racial dialogue and racial silence impact DEI initiatives in these organizations, and
beyond?
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Importance of the Study
The lack of candid discussion about race and racism in organizations is a problem because in
today’s climate of demands for racial and social justice, leaders are being called upon to embed such
dialogue within their organizations, and to routinely foster difficult conversations around race and
racism (Acosta & Ackerman-Barger, 2017).
Racism and U.S. History
Understanding U.S. history is critical to understanding the pervasive nature of systemic racism
today (Kelly & Aden, 2022). For example, discrimination in employment, housing, healthcare, and
environmental issues, among other things, has contributed to the present disparities experienced by
Black people and other people of color in the United States (North, 2020). Researchers have long
discussed the inadequacy of textbooks in addressing race and racism in historical accounts, and say that
a fuller knowledge of race and racism in this country begins with how history is taught in the nation’s
educational institutions (Kelly & Aden, 2022). Kelly and Aden examined nine high school history
textbooks for their treatment of thirteen narratives of unjust actions by the U.S. federal government
against its citizens of color. These actions spanned the period from 1787 to 2001, and included such
things as the Fugitive Slave Act, the Dred Scott decision, the Chinese Exclusion Act, the Indian Removal
Act, and Japanese American internment. The authors concluded in relation to these actions that the
textbooks centered whiteness, and failed to portray the actions as immoral and unjust by omitting or
minimizing facts, and/or otherwise attributing responsibility. In the New York Times article “The 1619
Project: The Long Battle Over U.S. History”, Silverstein (2021) describes how the Project traces the
arrival of the first African slaves in America. He agrees with the Project’s view of slavery as “inextricable”
(p. 1) from U.S. history, and that it foreshadows the racism and racial inequities that developed over
time and exist in the United States to this day. Baszile (2016) detailed historical accounts of the
abolitionist movement in the United States, and declared that critical race counter-storytelling (or
13

centering marginalized voices) was a key component in its success, and is necessary to “…intentionally
and strategically challeng[e] the assumptions and logic of stories that ultimately work to reinforce racial
domination….” In Chapter Two, I will reference the historical impact of government and other unjust
actions, and how they contributed to the systemic racism that exists in the United States today.
Overview of Theoretical Framework and Methodology
Critical race theory (CRT) provides the theoretical framework for this study. CRT holds that race
and racism exist (Solórzano & Yosso, 2002), and that racism is not just individual actions, but the result
of discriminatory policies and systems that have negatively impacted marginalized groups over time
(Morgan, 2022). CRT frames race as the centerpiece for social inequity and injustice, and suggests that
organizations should look beyond institutional racism to the drivers of racism within the broader society
(Ladson-Billings, 2013). In doing so, inequities in key areas propagated and sustained in Black and other
communities of color are exposed when they show up as expressions of bias within organizations. CRT is
disruptive because it challenges the status quo, and traditional power relationships and norms. Change
is an inherent goal of CRT, which calls for systems to be transformed by recognizing and valuing
knowledge that has been previously overlooked and silenced (Solórzano & Yosso, 2002).
Morgan (2022) describes CRT’s originat ion in the field of law by Kimberlé Crenshaw, whose first
writings examined the duality of discrimination experienced by Black women based on race and gender,
and wherein she coined the term “intersectionality” (Crenshaw, 1992, pp. 140 -41). Although CRT first
emerged in the context of critical legal studies that initially focused on Black people, it was eventually
adopted by, and adapted for the social sciences for application to other marginalized populations
(George, 2022; Lopez & Warren, 2015). CRT centers marginalized voices, and reveals historical and
cultural omissions through narratives and counternarratives by telling the stories of groups that typically
go untold (Crenshaw, 1989; Morgan, 2022; Solórzano & Yosso, 2001).
Ladson-Billings (2018) described five key tenets of CRT:
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1. Racism is normal and pervasive in the United States.
2. Interest convergence, or the notion that White people will support anti-racism only if it is in
their self-interest, exists. Said differently, racial activism requires alignment of its goals with
the interests of those in power.
3. Race is a social construct with no biological or scientific foundation; race is not real, but its
effects are real.
4. Intersectionality, or how multiple identities (e.g., race, gender, and disability) intersect, lead
to expressions of discrimination that further encumber an individual.
5. It is necessary to center marginalized voices, and reveal counternarratives that have gone
unheard.
Critical theories encompass the transformative worldview, focusing on various aspects of
diversity or socioeconomic class (Solórzano & Yosso, 2002). As with CRT and other critical theories, the
transformative worldview identifies and challenges systems of oppression, politics, and power (Wilson,
2008). The transformative worldview considers participant voice and experience crucial to presenting an
accurate view of reality (Aliyu et al., 2015). The transformative worldview addresses social justice and
related issues, includes the voices and participation of marginalized groups, and incorporates participant
counternarratives in the research with an eye toward change that will positively impact their lives
(Creswell & Creswell, 2018).
In recent years, CRT has become a target in the United States of those who advocate banning
what they consider to be CRT-related education and instruction, and there have been successful
attempts to pass legislation in multiple states that ban CRT from classrooms at both K-12 and college
levels (Kelly & Aden, 2022; Morgan, 2022). CRT critics have mounted campaigns targeting parents that
label CRT as harmful to children – specifically White children. Countering this claim, data from a survey
conducted by the American Federation of Teachers in 2021 that queried 1,136 educators (American
15

Association of Educators) revealed that CRT is not taught in K-12 classrooms, that almost 44% favored
being able to add CRT to their instruction, and 11% believed such instruction should be mandatory. The
controversy started in earnest when then President Donald Trump signed an executive order banning
diversity training and CRT as instruction that made children feel uncomfortable. When President Joe
Biden rescinded the executive order, state legislatures began to enact their laws banning CRT, many of
which have the effect of banning certain books, and entire programs of instruction, including those
encompassing Black history, particularly ethnic studies (Morgan, 2022).
CRT does not blame White people today for racism. Rather, it addresses systems and policies
that negatively impact housing, employment, finances, et al., that must be dismantled to eliminate
racism. Those opposed to the mandates to ban CRT fear that preventing discussion of subject matter
because students feel uncomfortable eliminates the opportunity to hold the discussions about race and
racism that are sorely needed to achieve social justice.
A 2021 Lifeway Research telephone survey asked nearly 1,000 pastors “Which is the bigger
threat to the church in the United States today, critical race theory or racism?” Forty -eight percent said
racism, and 29% said CRT (p. 7). Sue (2005) calls the failure to discuss race and racism openly in
educational institutions a “conspiracy of silence” (p. 102). He concurs with CRT t hat racism is real,
pervasive and has real-world affects within organizations, and underscores that organizations create
cultures that incorporate norms based on stereotypes and assumptions of differences that include race.
Others agree that organizations are not “race -neutral” (Ray, 2019, p. 27), and that racism is systemic,
pervasive, and embedded in organizational policies and practices (Sue, 2005; Tatum, 2008). Therefore,
organizations must acknowledge the impact of racial bias on institutional policies and practices and how
they reduce access and equity for people of color and other marginalized groups (Ray, 2019).
CRT maintains that racism is present in all aspects of U.S. society and serves to advantage one
group (White people) over others based on race (Sue, 2005; Tatum, 1992), and attempts to explain how
16

racism embedded in systems and policies must be addressed to effectively dismantle racism (Morgan,
2022). Tatum (2001) distinguishes prejudice from racism, saying that every racial group can have biases
based in racial stereotypes, but it is White people who have held and still primarily hold the power
necessary to embed racism into the institutions and systems that reinforce such prejudices, to the
detriment of Black people and other marginalized groups.
Definitions
Pastors were asked to define certain terms in order to compare similarities and/or differences in
understandings. Definitions of the terms used in this study emerged from the literature review as
follows:
Diversity: “The representation, in one social system of people with distinctly different group
affiliations of cultural significance” (Cox 1993, p. 5).
Equity: “ The guarantee of fair treatment, access, opportunity, and advancement for all while
striving to identify and eliminate barriers that have prevented the full participation of some
groups” (Armstrong, 2019, p. 2).
Inclusion: “The degree to which individuals feel a part of critical organizational processes such as
access to information and resources, involvement in work groups, and ability to influence the
decision-making process” (Mor -Barak and Cherin 1998, p. 48).
Race: The group or groups that one identifies with as having similar physical traits that are
regarded as common among people of a shared ancestry. Race is a social construct, not a
biological one. (Merriam Webster, n.d.)
Racism: A belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that
racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race (Merriam Webster, n.d.)
17

Systemic racism: “ [Systemic Racism] is not simply the result of individual prejudice and bigotry,
but is more significantly the product of historic institutional power structures” (Barndt, 2011, pp. 4 -
5).
Organization of the Dissertation
Chapter Two is a review of the literature relevant to my research questions. In the following
chapter, I review the status of race, racism, and DEI efforts in this country, and I examine the slow
progress made by organizational DEI efforts to date. I briefly review the current movement to ban CRT,
and comment on the so-called “post -racial” era. I provide a short overview of organizational
communication about race and racism, and explore the drivers of such dialogue. I then present the
theoretical and conceptual frameworks for my study. Chapter Three describes the methodology and
design of the study, my positionality as a researcher, data sources, and trustworthiness and credibility. I
also discuss ethical considerations, and limitations and delimitations. In Chapter Four, I present the
findings in relation to my research questions, and in Chapter Five, I discuss the findings, and provide
recommendations for future practice.

18

Chapter Two: Review of the Literature
Organizations in the United States have made efforts to effectively incorporate diversity, equity,
and inclusion within their settings, yet recent data show there have been incremental gains. In some
instances, there have been losses (Giles, 2020). Considering the present-day calls for equity and social
justice, churches, and other organizations are being challenged to take a more proactive stance against
racism in this country (Barndt, 2011).
Race and Racism in the United States
Addressing racial silence is important because, as Martinez (2019) asserted, failure to do so
results in an environment where certain groups feel that their opinions and experiences do not matter,
and both individual and organizational success is hindered. Whiteside and Barclay (2012) offered that
not speaking up is an act of communication that sends a message about employee perceptions of the
workplace. They identified two motivations for employee silence – futility, believing nothing will be
done, and fear, or the possibility of retribution. Both stem from employee perceptions of fairness and
overall justice – or the lack thereof – in the organization. Employee silence can lead to different
consequences that impact the organization. If the request to address racial or social injustice is ignored
or inadequately addressed, employees may quit and then give voice to the injustice outside of the
organization, or a new and significant event may prompt employees to complain more vigorously
(Morrison, 2014). The 2020 Wharton School report that measured the effectiveness of DEI initiatives
(Creary et al.) found DEI initiatives and education played an important role in enabling people to speak
up about bias and existing workplace policies and practices. Kendi (2019) calls the denial that racist
policies exist “the heartbeat of racism” (p. 9). One of the best ways to address aversive racism is to have
a frank dialogue about racial bias and its consequences (Sue et al., 2009). Without such dialogue, efforts
to dismantle racism embedded in organizations will falter (DiAngelo, 2011). Singleton (2011) outlines
strategies for creating and sustaining difficult conversations about race and racism. He alludes to the
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slow progress made regarding diversity in the United States, and advises people to neither expect
closure nor comfort when engaging in such dialogue. Despite these unfavorable effects, Singleton
believes positive outcomes result from such conversations.
Ray (2019) presented a theory that depicts organizations as “racialized” (p. 27) where power is
deployed that creates disparities, limits access for people of color, and supports White privilege.
Merriam-Webster (2022) defines White privilege as “the set of social and economic advantages that
white people have by virtue of their race”. Ray (2019) argued that organizations are not “race neutral”
(p. 27). White people, in particular, do not recognize or understand the negative consequences that
enduring concepts like meritocracy have on institutions, or why this concept is limiting for people of
color (DiAngelo, 2011). Just as talking about race and racism in the United States produces a powerful
array of emotional responses from White people, such as shame, guilt, anger, withdrawal, silence, and
avoidance (Tatum, 2001), challenging the idea of meritocracy in the U.S. workplace evokes a great deal
of resistance because the concept is so deeply embedded in the values of this country (Sue, 2005).
While White people benefit from the idea of meritocracy, most have a hard time recognizing
that adherence to this concept gives them advantages that people of color do not enjoy, and as with
racism, challenging the concept of meritocracy creates an emotional response from White people that
resists honest dialogue (Sue, 2005; Tatum, 1992). Barndt (2011) defines racism as prejudice plus power,
that is, discriminatory practices embedded into institutions. He describes racism as “far more than the
prejudices of a single individual, and even far more than the collective prejudices of any one racial
group” (p. 5). Racism must be viewed as pervasive and as having real-world effects within organizations,
because an organization’s cultural norms include stereotypes and assumptions based on race, gender,
sexual orientation, disability and other differences that serve to disadvantage marginalized groups (Sue,
2005). A blame-the-victim approach has people of color shouldering the blame for their plight regarding
employment compared to White people; this approach supports the view that individuals are the
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problem, rather than oppressive and biased structures and systems (O’Neill, 2005). Racism is embedded
in organizations and is camouflaged by policies and practices that seem impartial or merit-based (Sue,
2005; Tatum, 2008).
Knowing the historical context in the United States of how both de jure and de facto
discrimination in employment, housing, healthcare, and environmental issues, among others, have
contributed to the present-day disparities experienced by people of color in these areas is key to
revealing the pervasive nature of systemic racism today (Anderson, 2010; Hughey, 2014; Pager &
Shepherd, 2008). Racism has had a long-term, deleterious impact on Black people and other people of
color in the United States, and White people have not been socialized to pay attention to how racism
benefits them (DiAngelo, 2011). Ladson-Billings (2013), a proponent of CRT, underscores that race is
ever-present and all-encompassing and that it is critical to make room for counternarratives to reveal
the whole picture.
Diversity is viewed as a driver of organizational innovation (Dyer et al., 2019), and successfully
managing diversity is especially critical for global organizations today (Northouse, 2019). Hecht (2020)
counted himself among the White CEOs who know that the subject of race requires their focused
attention, while at the same time they feel unprepared, and even fearful of doing the wrong thing. He
suggested that transforming the organization, rather than trying to transform the people, is the answer.
However, diversity alone is insufficient for organizational change related to racial and social justice
(Dobbins & Kalev, 2016). Change also requires equity, or “[t]he guarantee of fair treatment, access,
opportunity, and advancement while identifying and eliminating barriers that have prevented the full
participation of some groups” (Armstrong, 2019, p. 1); and inclusion, or “bringing traditionally excluded
individuals and/or groups into processes, activities, and decision/policy making in a way that shares
power, and is reflected by the sense of belonging that individuals from those groups feel as a result”
(Armstrong, 2019, p. 2).
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The Historical Role of U.S. Churches in Racial Justice Movements
Churches in the United States have long played a historical role in racial justice movements, and
cross-racial dialogue (Driskill & Jenkins, 2019). The first African American church in the United States
was established in 1794 because of anti-Black sentiment, and poor treatment of Black people in White
churches. In the 1950s, the Black church became the birthplace of the Civil Rights Movement (Smith &
Wynn, 2009). The Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC), a faith-based organization founded
in 1957 led by ordained minister, scholar, and founding president, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., was a
prominent driver of the Movement’s message that was preached from the platforms of Black churches
across the country (Smith & Wynn, 2009).
Although the prevailing narrative is that White churches joined in the struggle for civil rights,
historically, White churches rarely did so, and those that did often lost congregants and supporters
because of it (Dupont, 2018). Kosek (2013, p. 232) described “kneel -ins” that revealed the mixed
reactions of southern White churches during the Civil Rights Movement:
African American protests at white churches in the American South laid bare the racial logic of
Jim Crow Christianity. The so-called kneel-ins emerged out of the sit-in movement and were
sometimes dubbed ‘‘church sit -ins.’’ Typically, an interracial or all -black cohort visited a white
congregation on Sunday morning and attempted to enter the building for worship services.
Reactions varied: sometimes the group was welcomed inside, sometimes ushered into a
separate auditorium, sometimes barred entirely, and, occasionally, arrested and thrown in jail.
The visits revealed that many churches, even those whose evangelical theology seemed to
demand that they welcome anyone who appeared at their doors, actually prohibited African
Americans from their membership rolls and even from their sanctuaries.
Many Christians were in favor of slavery in this country, and as recipients of its benefits,
supported it until decades later. In the face of the biblical teachings that were a prominent part of the
22

Civil Rights Movement, Christians could not ignore the incongruence of that position with their Christian
beliefs (Copeland, 2014). Although some White churches joined in civil rights efforts, Black voices were
centered, and top leadership roles were typically held by Black people (Dupont, 2018; Moon, 2014). In
an online commentary about this period, the Anti-Racism Daily defined the Black Church during that
time as an entity that “prodded the consciousness of Ameri ca, demanding the dismantling of anti-
Blackness in all its forms” (2021, para. 9).
The Black preachers of the day, who led the fight for civil rights locally, offered sermons and the
prayers of the people that sparked political activism (Bauerlin et al., 2003). Black churches also provided
financial support for the Movement through the offerings they raised (Smith & Wynn, 2009). Black
churches became critical and actively engaged components of the Civil Rights Movement, safe places
that nurtured talent, produced leaders, and provided space for organizers and volunteers to develop
plans and strategies (Smith & Wynn, 2009). Leadership development was alive and well in Black
churches as Black people faced individual and institutional racism, legalized discrimination, and
oppressive challenges to the humanity of Black people (Bonilla & Silva, 2006; Eberhardt, 2010; Tatum,
2001). The Black leaders in the Civil Rights Movement were the ministers who linked arms with the
community and other activists to effect racial, social and political change in this country (Smith & Wynn,
2009). They centered the call for racial justice well before Kimberlé Crenshaw used CRT to center race in
scholarship and the national dialogue (Crenshaw, 1989; Gross, 2017; Ladson-Billings, 2013).
Noll (2009) characterized religion as an episodic “political force” (p. 103) in American history,
and saw the Civil Rights Movement with Black churches at the center as a force that changed the
political course of the United States, while noting that the support or lack of support of religious White
people for the Civil Rights Movement was hard to measure. Toward the end of the formal Civil Rights
Movement era, although White evangelicals were marginal participants, they mostly accepted civil
rights for Black Americans, and some actively supported them (Noll, 2009). Nevertheless, as Martin
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Luther King, Jr. lamented in his 1968 speech at the National Cathedral in Washington, D.C., “We must
face the sad fact that at eleven o’clock on Sunday morning when we stand to sing ‘In Christ there is no
East or West,’ we stand in the most segrega ted hour of America” (DC 1968 Project).
Segregation in Churches Today
Churches in the United States – although primarily Black churches – have played a significant
role in advancing racial and social justice (Barndt, 2011; Smith & Wynn, 2009). According to Gallup’s
2020 poll of U.S. church membership, churches in the United States reach hundreds of thousands of
people who attend church services weekly, or at least twice a month; however, churches are not always
racially diverse. Lifeway Research (2020) queried U.S. Protestant pastors and found that 76% of their
churches were only one racial or ethnic group – although there has been some change in recent years.
Barndt (2011) acknowledged that White churches have not done enough to combat and dismantle
systemic racism, and believes there exists an opportunity for churches to continue as racial and social
justice advocates today by facilitating racial dialogue.
Church Leadership and Antiracism
In his book about the complicity of the Christian church in supporting racism in the United
States, Tisby (2019) stated that “[h]istorically speaking, when faced with the choice between racism and
equality, the American church has tended to practice a complicit Christianity rather than a courageous
Christianity” (p. 2). He defined “courageous Christianity” as embracing race and ethnicity in the context
of glorifying God. Tisby supported the notion that “complicit” is too passive a word, because not only did
the White Christian church not fight against racism, but it also often actively fought to sustain it. Tisby
saw the White Christian church’s recognition of this failure as something that should move them to a
“fierce action” that reflects the words of the Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 7:9 (ESV): “I rejoice, not
because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting” (p. 2).
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Historical accounts reveal how church leaders and congregants in the United States collaborated
to tear down racism, but such involvement has waned since the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s
(Driskill & Jenkins, 2019). Hart (2016), an African American male, shared his view of the role of church
leadership in leading dialogue about race and racism, and posed these questions:
Are Christians in dominant culture prepared to listen to groups of people who have seen
trouble, so much trouble? Is the church a place where we can talk about the trouble we’ve
seen? Is the church a place not only where we’ll be truly heard and under stood but also where
we will become a transformed community? (p. 11).
Over the years some of the largest Christian denominations in the United States have taken a
stand against racial discrimination and violence, including the Southern Baptist Convention, Evangelical
Lutheran Church in America, and the Presbyterian Church U.S.A. (Edwards, 2008; Jones & Williams,
2017). Barndt (2011) concedes that progress has been made in White churches, but that the focus has
been on establishing diverse representation in church personnel, creating multicultural programs and
services, and increasing diversity in church membership. He stressed that changing organizational
structure where seats of power reside, and transforming the church’s foundational mission and purpose
that historically served White people exclusively, are typically not given priority.
Gadzepko (1997) named seven Black denominations as the “core of the black church” (p.98),
and stated that all but one were created as a result of the exclusion or poor treatment of Black people in
White churches at the time. He framed these origins of Black churches as “precursor[s] of the fight for
civil rights” (p. 9 9), and suggested that those who established the first Black churches can be viewed as
the first freedom fighters. Their actions were rooted in the desire to be free from enslavement, and to
worship in a way that undergirded the belief that freedom was the spiritual right of all peoples
(Gadzepko, 1997). These and other Black church leaders who followed “led the fight against racism,
25

sexism, and segregation, and prepared the ground for the civil rights movement” (Gadzepko, 1997, p.
102).
A 2020 survey of one hundred of the largest churches in the United States revealed that
attendance at these churches ranged from over 3,000 people to more than 35,000 people per week (The
Outreach 100 Largest Churches, 2020). In a Lifeway Research telephone survey of 1,000 pastors in 2020,
88% agreed that the church should be diverse. However, most led churches of predominantly one race.
The largest churches in the United States are led by White pastors who have predominantly White
congregation members (Barndt, 2011; Emerson & Smith, 2000; Emerson & Woo, 2006), and churches
today tend to be highly segregated, a reflection of how race continues to be a dominant factor in how
American life is organized (Dodson, 2019).
Organizational Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Efforts in the United States
Successfully managing diversity is especially critical for global organizations today (Northouse,
2019). Although business executives agree that DEI is a top priority, they acknowledge that they are not
fully equipped to address it, and are sometimes reluctant to do anything for fear of doing the wrong
thing (Hecht, 2020). As a first step, organizations must recognize that it is not people of color who are
the problem, but the organization’s culture, which is based on institutional racism.
Ray (2019) pointed out that organizational theory has not given race enough attention, and race
and ethnicity theories have not sufficiently addressed how these constructs operate within
organizations. Jones (2000) called racism within organizations “ins titutional racism”, and defined it as
“…differential access to the goods, services, and opportunities of society by race [that is] normative,
sometimes legalized, and often manifests as inherited disadvantage…”, resulting in, among other things,
disparities in employment (p. 1212).
For organizational change to occur, leaders must model the desired change (Dirani et al., 2020).
Leaders should engage in reflective practices that help them thoughtfully consider their past, present,
26

and future actions, and envision what is needed for course correction (Casad & Bryant, 2016; Prestia,
2019). They must make room for marginalized voices (Northouse, 2019), review the historical context of
racism in the United States and how it is embedded in organizational cultures (Hecht, 2020), and figure
out what changes in policies and practices must be made to eliminate persistent differences in
outcomes for employees of color (Bonilla & Silva, 2006). Followers will look to their leaders for cognitive
support – helping them make sense of and develop needed skills for change – and emotional support –
helping them manage uncertainty, fear and the distrust that typically surfaces (Gill, 2002).
An organization’s cultural norms include stereotypes and assumptions based on race and o ther
differences that disadvantage marginalized groups (Steele, 2010). Among the assumptions in this
country are the myths that meritocracy in the workplace operates fairly for all (McNamee & Miller,
2018), and that Asian Americans are a model for other people of color because they have prevailed in
achieving career success by embodying the values of meritocracy (Yu, 2006). Both concepts are rooted
in erroneous views that support the status quo – views that lead to employment disparities year after
year, indicating that racism is pervasive, and has serious, real-world consequences (Sue, 2005; Yosso,
2005). Organizations must begin to talk openly about these issues, or be prepared to face employee
resentment, disengagement, and limited progress, rather than the inclusion and greater productivity
they seek (Toegel, 2019).
Employee silence is a barrier that impedes both individual and institutional transformation and
growth (Morrison & Milliken, 2000). The negative impact of employee silence on individual and
organizational success must be addressed in a systematic way, and leaders must become aware of how
their own shortcomings encourage employee silence, and work to reverse this effect (Sterling, 2019,
Toegel & Barsoux, 2019). According to Souba et al. (2014), when leaders engage in and promote changes
in communication, employees are more inclined to participate in like fashion. However, failure to enable
employee communication inhibits growth, impedes learning, shuts down new perspectives, and
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maintains a narrow view that quashes creativity (Dyer et al., 2019; Souba et al., 2014, Toegel & Barsoux,
2019). Perceptions of workplace injustice further exacerbate the problem, and must be corrected
(Martinez, 2019). Increased social acceptance is especially critical for racial minorities to view their
workplaces as just and inclusive. The organization’s convincing outward expression of commitment to
racial diversity must show up as a similar commitment of action internally (Adediran, 2018; Chen &
Hamilton, 2015).
Baker (2016) provided three concepts based on her classroom experiences with students, which
encouraged discussion about subjects perceived as risky: create a safe space, release control, and treat
listening as a primary element of learning. She suggested that this process “…offers a model for
engagement with professional colleagues in the workplace” (p. 704). Empowering employees to speak
up to those above them who have the authority to address and resolve their concerns is critical in every
organization because employees know about and can call to the attention of leadership actions and
behaviors that may be corrupt, unfair, biased, socially unjust, or even unlawful (Detert & Edmondson,
2011) – significant activities that might otherwise go unchecked.
Slow Progress Despite Commitment
Slow progress has been made by DEI organizational change efforts in the United States, as
demonstrated by persistent disparate outcomes in different areas for BIPOC populations (Bernstein,
2019), mass anti-racism protests regarding continued police violence against Black people (Deo, 2021),
and a startling uptick in anti-Asian hate crimes (CSUSB Center for the Study of Hate & Extremism, 2021).
Organizations must also pay attention to demographic shifts that require they embrace conversations
about race and racism to remain competitive (Bernstein, 2019). Although businesses and other
organizations have expressed a commitment to DEI, their efforts have produced poor results (Giles,
2020). U.S. data consistently reveal bias in the recruiting of BIPOC individuals, and data also show BIPOC
employees making fewer gains in promotion (Pager, 2008). Black people experience more poverty than
28

White people, and lag behind White people in earnings and net worth, do not receive comparable
education when compared to White people, and Black-owned housing is valued at less than that owned
by White people (Bonilla-Silva, 2006). While a 2020 Pew research study found that more than half of
Black people thought the existing focus on race would result in positive changes toward racial equity in
the United States, a more recent study by Pew Research Center (2022) found that fewer Black people
(44%) were optimistic about such changes than in previous years. In addition, a majority do not believe
anything has changed since the racial protests and related calls to action of 2020.
The election of Barack Obama as the first Black President of the United States in 2008 led to
proclamations that the United States had entered a post-racial era where addressing race and racism
would no longer be necessary (Robinson, 2010; Umaña-Taylor, 2016). However, data regarding racial
and ethnic discrimination against adults and youth refute this notion (Crenshaw, 2011; Umaña-Taylor,
2016). Bonilla-Silva (2015) argued that Jim Crow era racism has been replaced by institutional practices
and policies that appear non-racial, and make up the so-called post-racial America. This “new racism, ” as
Bonilla-Silva called it, emerged during the post-Civil Rights era and consists of a “racial structure” that
accommodates the lack of communication about race and racism (p. 1362). He concluded that although
racial inequities continue systemically, they are subtle and do not appear as racial.
Perkins and Fields (2010) studied 82 church organizations in the same denomination to discover
how specific factors like diversity in age, spiritual maturity, attitudes, and tenure on their leadership
teams impacted church growth. They defined the top management team (TMT) as a senior pastor, and
assistant pastors who have responsibility for specific functions (e.g., youth, music ministry, Christian
education, etc.) and regarded this structure as typical in church settings. They also described church
TMTs as serving in dual leadership roles – organizational and spiritual. According to a U.S. religious
landscape survey (Pew Research, 2014), one element of spiritual leadership is guiding congregants on
right and wrong. In their survey of over 35,000 evangelical Protestants, Pew found that 60% of
29

respondents believed that their religion provided them with guidance on what is right and wrong
(second only to common sense). Pair this finding with other data that show a majority of White pastors
believe their churches should be racially and ethnically diverse (Lifeway Research, 2020), and one might
conclude that Christians in the United States are inclined to take a stand against racism in all its forms.
Communication About Race & Racism
There is racial silence, or a lack of candid discussion about race and racism in organizations
(Barndt, 2011; Sue, 2005; Tatum, 1992, 2001). Because of ongoing demands for racial and social justice,
organizational leaders are being pressed to talk about race and racism (which I call racial dialogue), and
to make space for and encourage such dialogue (Acosta & Ackerman-Barker, 2017). Harper (2012)
demonstrated that even researchers in this area resist using the terms “racist” and “racism” in their
writing, substituting them with other identifiers, such as “alienating, h ostile, marginalizing…and
isolating….” (p. 20). In churches, pastors are more reluctant to address issues of race in their
congregations today than four years ago (Lifeway Research, 2021). According to the 2021 Lifeway
Research study, 74% of pastors agreed that their congregation would welcome a sermon on racial
reconciliation, with 32% strongly agreeing. However, in 2016, 90% of pastors believed their
congregation would be open to a sermon on the topic, with 57% strongly agreeing. Today, 17% of
pastors say their churches would not want to hear about racial reconciliation, up from 7% in 2016. As
one pastor expressed in a different study (Helsel, 2017):
I knew racism was real, but I did not want to think about myself as White. In ministry, I also
encountered others like me who were White but who avoided naming themselves as White or
talking about race or racism. As a preacher, I realized I needed to talk about being White, but
was not comfortable discussing a subject that brought up so much anxiety and shame.
Helsel (2017) urged White people to view racism not as their responsibility but as their “response -
ability”, in that their commitment to talk about racism is critical (p. 25).
30

Anti-racism and anti-blackness have evolved over the years to accommodate cultural shifts, and
that which is no longer acceptable to say has been replaced by language that masks racist attitudes –
e.g., “it’s too political” (Bonilla -Silva, 2006). Anti-blackness is inextricably tied to White identity
(“whiteness”), and white privilege in the United States (Ross, 2020). Acknowledging that racism exists is
key to advancing the conversation about changing institutional policies and practices. Such dialogue
must be included if progress is to be made (Sue, 2005; Barndt, 2011; Calvard, 2021). White people and
Black people must understand that it is not about blame but addressing the problem and creating
solutions (Barndt, 2011). Bridging this gap should be included as an intentional goal; these conversations
cannot be left to chance (Calvard, 2021), and enabling White people to be in denial or dismissive of real
harms resulting from racist policies and practices is no longer acceptable (Kendi, 2019).
The National African American Museum’s number one question since its opening in 2014 is
“How d o we talk about race?” (NAAMHC, 2022). This paper focuses only on Black and White people in
this country. My lived experience in this nation as an African American woman, and polling data that
reveal the largest differences in the way groups view race and racism exists between Black and White
people (Gallup, 2021) compel me to center African Americans, and the African American experience in
my study of racial dialogue and racial silence. Sixty-four percent of Americans believe that anti-Black
racism is widespread in this country (Gallup, 2021). The same poll shows the number at 84% among non-
Hispanic Blacks, and 59% among non-Hispanic Whites. The 2021 Gallup poll further demonstrates that a
serious perception gap exists between Black people and White people in this country about the nature
and impact of racism. Non-Hispanic Blacks are ranked highest among all the groups polled (non-Hispanic
Blacks, non-Hispanic Whites, and Hispanics) in their belief that Black people are treated less fair in
numerous categories – on the job, in communities, while shopping, in eating establishments, during
police interactions, and while receiving healthcare – and non-Hispanic Blacks have responded in this way
since the poll’s inception in 1997 (Gallup, 2021).
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Other indicators of a need to focus on Black and White people while discussing race and racism
in this country include the Black Lives Matter movement that once again thrust anti-blackness and police
violence into the public eye (Kline, 2020). Bold initiatives like the 1619 Project, the brainchild of the New
York Times and Pulitzer prize-winning journalist, Nikole Hannah-Jones, celebrated the 400
th
anniversary
of the arrival of slaves in this country, and positioned African Americans and the African American
experience as critical to the establishment and development of the United States from its earliest origins
(Goggins, 2019; Silverstein, 2021).
White Discomfort Talking About Race and Racism
Talking about race and racism in the United States produces a powerful array of emotional
responses from White people, including shame, guilt, anger, withdrawal, silence, and avoidance (Tatum,
2001). The emotion and resistance that emerges when we engage in discussions about racism, and calls
for accountability should not dissuade the attempts, because effectively addressing issues of race
requires that people talk about them (Barndt, 2011; Bernstein, 2019; Sanders, 2020). The inability to talk
about race and racism in organizations will diminish efforts to correct the associated ills (DiAngelo,
2011).
White people may not recognize or understand the negative consequences that enduring
concepts associated with racism have on institutions, or why these concepts are limiting for people of
color (DiAngelo, 2011). They may also have difficulty recognizing advantages they enjoy that people of
color do not have access to, and challenging such unearned advantages results in an emotional response
that resists honest dialogue (Sue, 2005; Tatum, 1992).
Looking through the lens of critical race theory (Solórzano & Yosso, 2002), this study will
examine how Black people's narratives affect White people, and how this leads, if at all, to a greater
level of racial dialogue that, in turn, positively impacts DEI efforts. If centering Black pastor’s voices leads
White people to have more comfort communicating about race and racism, then individual and
32

institutional racism may be reduced (Wang et al., 2003). Reducing individual bias and systemic racism
will help churches accomplish their biblical mandates (Tisby, 2019), and help increase equity and access
within other organizations, and within the United States, as well (DiAngelo, 2011).
Organizations have started to acknowledge the need to talk about race and racism to achieve
changes in individual behavior and organizational practices (Garner & Rossmanith, 2020). Driskill and
Jenkins (2019, p. 448) believe there is “unre alized potential” in churches in the United States that
remain segregated, and that segregated churches miss the opportunity to enhance racial dialogue and
positively impact diversity in their communities. These authors agreed that White pastors could provide
opportunities for their congregations to engage in honest and direct dialogue about race and racism.
Such dialogue can subsequently enhance DEI efforts on organizational levels within their communities.
Conceptual Framework
The conceptual framework, or theory of change, guides research, framing and showing the
relationship between concepts that will be examined (Hinga, n.d.; Wilson, 2008). The conceptual
framework for this study addresses DEI, and encompasses a continuum that spans from racial silence to
racial dialogue. Racial dialogue, or talking about race and racism within organizations, is adapted from
existing terminology in the field regarding employee voice – the willingness of employees to speak up
about important issues (Morrison, 2014), and what Sue (2013) calls “race talk” (p. 664). Racial silence, or
not talking about race and racism in organizations, is adapted from existing terminology in the field
regarding employee silence, or what DiAngelo (2012) calls, “white silence” (p. 2).
A Wharton School report that measured the effectiveness of DEI initiatives (Creary et al., 2020)
found DEI initiatives and education played an important role in enabling people to speak up about bias,
and existing workplace policies and practices. My research will examine whether Black pastors'
narratives enable racial dialogue, and if the racial dialogue is an effective driver for reducing systemic
racism in organizations – in this case, Christian churches. Figure 1 depicts the discussion about race and
33

racism on a continuum from racial silence to racial dialogue. The four phases along the continuum
(resistant, passive, resilient, and engaged) are not necessarily linear. An individual may be at different
points along the continuum concerning different topics related to race and racism. Racial silence is
resistance to communication about race and racism by White people. I suggest that when the narratives
and counternarratives of Black pastors’ voices and their lived experiences regarding race and racism are
introduced, White people will be more willing to talk about this subject. The result is racial dialogue, and
an acknowledgement of, and agreement about systemic racism in the organization. I further suggest
that racial dialogue will in turn result in strategies to improve DEI efforts, and facilitate organizational
change. The ends of the continuum represent the absence or presence of formal DEI initiatives, although
either informal or formal DEI initiatives can develop at any point along the continuum as racial dialogue
increases.
Figure 1
Talking About Race and Racism

34

Summary
After George Floyd’s murder, companies across the United States began to recognize that the
inability to talk about race and racism – typically taboo in the workplace – diminished efforts to correct
the ills associated with systemic racism, and they began to make room for such discussions (HR News,
2020). The need for racial dialogue was centered on the convergence of police killings of Black people in
the United States, the resulting social protests, racial disparities highlighted during the COVID-19
pandemic, and the disappointing progress of DEI efforts reported across professions and industries
(McKenzie & Co., 2021). The 2021 McKenzie report found that Black people are underrepresented in 20
occupations that include law, medicine, technology, finance, and teaching. The Society for Resource
Management’s HR News (202 0) reported that companies had spent $8 billion yearly on DEI initiatives
but had little to show. Employers have done a decent job hiring diverse employees but they have not
done as well in retaining and promoting them. A report by McKenzie and LeanIn.org (2021) revealed
that White people held 65% of entry-level jobs in corporate America, and people of color held 32%;
White people held 81% of VP positions compared to 19% held by people of color; 14% of C-suite
positions were held by people of color; and only three Black CEOs existed in Fortune 500 companies.
Many point to these indicators as proof that race and racism must be addressed head on – in other
words, there must be racial dialogue to tackle these wicked problems.

35

Chapter Three: Methodology
I conducted qualitative research for this study consisting of semi-structured interviews,
observation, and a review of relevant online documents and videos. In qualitative research, I, as the
researcher, am the instrument or tool (Creswell & Creswell, 2018) who must remain mindful of how my
identity affects the way I engage in research. I must also reflect on how others think of me as a
researcher, and how any power imbalances might affect the way participants respond to me (Creswell &
Creswell, 2018).
I began my research with participant interviews. I used a qualitative research approach, and
triangulated data in the form of semi-structured interviews, observation, and digital artifacts that
included websites, videos, and other digital media (Creswell & Creswell, 2018).
During the interviews, I observed participant environments and behavior, noting unique physical
settings, participant reactions to questions and their responses, and other non-verbal cues and subtle
indicators (e.g., long pauses, and displays of emotion). During the interview period, I periodically
watched related videos online, and reviewed content on church websites. All participant church
websites were reviewed for the diversity of visual images, diversity or DEI related statements and
content, messages, sermons, and/or documents related to race and racism, and diversity, equity, and
inclusion efforts in the church or denominational organization.
Research Questions
A theory of change (TOC) serves as a guide for research, framing and showing the relationship
between concepts that will be examined (See Figure 1 in the previous chapter for a visual representation
of my TOC). DEI initiatives initially focused largely on individual behavior change. They have now been
expanded to embrace initiatives aimed at changing organizational policies and practices. I am exploring
how communicating (or not) about race and racism affects organizational change.
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There is agreement that a high level of discomfort in discussing race and racism exists, especially
among White people (DiAngelo, 2011; Harper, 2012; Sue, 2005, 2009; Tatum, 2001). Looking through
the lens of CRT (Solórzano & Yosso, 2002), my research examines whether Black counternarratives
increase racial dialogue that includes a greater willingness by White people to communicate about race
and racism, and if racial dialogue is more effective in reducing systemic racism in church organizations.
My research questions explore how dialogue about race and racism impacts diversity, equity,
and inclusion progress in organizations. Although I acknowledge that these issues extend to
communication between White people and other people of color, my research focuses on this issue
between White people and Black people only, and was done in the context of Christian churches in the
United States. Seventy-one percent of White people in the U.S. identify as Christians, and 72% of Black
people identify as such (Public Religion Research Institute, 2020). A 2020 Gallup poll revealed that nearly
50% of Americans attend church regularly, and a third of Americans believe that the influence of religion
on our lives in this country is increasing. According to the Lifeway Research 100 Largest Churches survey
(2022), a majority of churches in the United States reflect one dominant race, and churches with White
pastors were most likely to report a lack of diversity in their congregations. Even though a majority of
the White pastors surveyed thought working to achieve diversity in their churches was important, fewer
pastors agreed with this statement in 2021 (88%) than in 2017 (93%). Edwards (2003) stated that
“[c]hurches are most successful within the American context (where ‘success’ is measured by the
number of attendees) when they appeal to one group” (p. 5).
My research study asks:
1. How are race and racism presented and discussed in churches that serve predominantly

Black, and predominantly White congregations?

2. How do narratives and counternarratives about race and racism by Black pastors affect

pastors and their churches?
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3. How does racial dialogue impact DEI initiatives in churches and beyond?
Overview of Design
I used a qualitative research approach, and triangulated data in the form of semi-structured
interviews, observation, and digital artifacts that included websites, videos, and other digital media
(Creswell & Creswell, 2018). Qualitative researchers triangulate data to increase the quality of the data,
and the subsequent analyses (Johnson & Christensen, 2020), and to further develop and explain
outcomes (Creswell & Creswell, 2018). In my study, qualitative data, (e.g., individual interviews,
observations, and artifacts that include print and digital media), revealed relevant narratives, and
explored levels of discomfort talking about race and racism between Black and White pastors, and
within predominantly Black, and predominantly White churches. Interviews also captured perceptions
and realities about the success or lack of DEI efforts in churches represented in the study. Open-ended
qualitative data was coded using Atlas.ti to reveal themes, aligning well with the counter-storytelling
essential to CRT (Creswell & Creswell, 2018; Merriam & Tisdell, 2016).
Research Setting
Interviews were conducted on the Zoom video platform using my account, so I scheduled and
sent video links to each pastor participant prior to their interview. The participant interview sites were
at any place of their choosing. Some appeared to be at home, others were in church offices, one was in
his car (I was assured he was able to drive safely), and some locations could not be discerned.
The Researcher
Aliyu et al. (2015) defined axiology as “…how one acts in the world”, ontology as “…how one
sees and views the world”, and epistemology as “…how one thinks about the world” (p. 13). The
axiology that frames my study includes stereotypical thinking rooted in implicit bias that manifests on
the individual level as microaggressions, and the institutional level as systemic racism. It underscores the
need for challenges to the status quo, and disruption of traditional power relationships and norms. The
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ontology of the transformative worldview includes that racism exists, and is embedded in oppressive
systems and structures that create disparate outcomes for marginalized groups (Foldy & Buckley, 2014).
The epistemology of the transformative worldview considers participant voice and experience as crucial
to presenting an accurate view of reality. Acknowledging oppressive systems that underlie the need for
change is paramount, and counternarratives speak to the question of whose knowledge is heard and
valued.
Researchers must consider their positionality, or worldview (Creswell & Creswell, 2018; Merriam
& Tisdell, 2016). My worldview is transformative. The goal of the transformative worldview is change.
The researcher is considered a participant whose views, experiences, and relationships impact the
research questions posed, the direction of the research, and its recommended solutions. The
transformative worldview identifies and challenges systems of oppression, politics, and power. It
addresses social justice and related issues; includes the voices and participation of marginalized groups,
and incorporates participant counternarratives in the research with an eye toward change that will
positively impact their lives (Creswell & Creswell, 2018). Wilson (2008) further verified that a scholar’s
approach as a researcher is transformative when qualitative research can serve to create and implement
change.
The transformative researcher is considered a participant whose views, experiences, and
relationships impact the research questions posed, the direction of the research, and its recommended
solutions (Creswell & Creswell, 2018). Wilson (2008) explained that transformative researchers use
qualitative research to create and implement change. Qualitative research is an inductive process
dependent upon rich description, where the researcher is the primary instrument (Merriam & Tisdell,
2016). It is clear to me that my lived experience as a Christian, and my passion for DEI combine to
heavily influence my positionality. I am an African American woman born and raised in the Jim Crow
South when overt racism was lawful in schools, businesses, and anywhere else it was mandated in my
39

small town. As a teenager I moved to Berkeley, California – a socially and politically liberal community –
and a secondary school environment that was experimenting with total integration for my class level.
These juxtaposed realities caused me to think quite a bit about race, its meaning, and its impact on how
people – Black people in particular – lived their lives.
Data Sources

Qualitative data typically solicits open-ended responses, such as those found in interviews.
Qualitative methodology is Informed by a worldview, and a theory. In my research, transformative
interviews are rooted in CRT (described in Chapter One). According to Merriam and Tisdell’s description
(2016), as a transformative researcher, I seek to “challenge and change” the perspectives of
participants, and move them to action in order to right racial injustice (p. 112).
Qualitative research is inductive, and does not set out with a preformed hypothesis (Merriam &
Tisdell, 2016). The researcher is led by the qualitative data that is emergent, and through ongoing
analysis, ideas about the topic of study may shift based on new understandings that surface along the
way. Qualitative research is also participatory (Creswell & Creswell, 2018). The qualitative researcher is
typically a participant in the research process who collects data in the field face-to-face through
interviews, observations, focus groups, etc. Consequently, qualitative researchers must be constantly
mindful of how their views and positionality can influence the type of data collected, the methods used
to collect data, and how the data are analyzed. Finally, qualitative research is interpretive (Creswell &
Creswell, 2018). It does not expect generalizability, or that outcomes can be replicated in other studies,
since samples are typically small (even in some cases, just one individual) and not randomized. In this
sense, the epistemology of qualitative research is evident.
Interviews
This study is centered on the Christian church in the United States using interviews with Black
pastors, and White pastors as primary data. I used a semi-structured interview format with open-ended
40

questions. Interviews with each pastor lasted 45 to 60 minutes, were conducted on a virtual video
platform, and recorded with live transcription, which yielded verbatim transcripts that I later coded
during data analysis. The interview guide contained 12 open-ended questions that first asked about the
pastor’s organization (e.g., “Please share more about your organization and your role”) and ministry
background (e.g., “How long have you been pastor of this church?”, and “How many years have you
been in ministry overall?”). Questi ons that followed included inquiries about their knowledge of relevant
terminology (e.g., “What is your understanding of the term racism?”, and DEI efforts in their churches,
e.g., “What kind of diversity, equity, and inclusion [or otherwise named] efforts do you have in your
church, if any?” Additional questions asked for examples of their experiences talking about race and
racism (e.g., “Describe a time when you talked about race and/or racism from the platform or in another
church meeting.”), reactions t o talking about race and racism (e.g., “How did your congregation react?”),
and their experiences talking to pastors of the same or a different race about race and racism (“Describe
a time when you talked to a White [and Black] pastor about race and racism.”). A final question asked
what kind of support they would need to facilitate discussion in their churches about race and racism.
See Appendix A for a copy of the interview guide.
Artifacts: Online Documents and Digital Media
I viewed secondary data (e.g., existing YouTube and other videos), and other relevant meetings
because pastors have the authority to speak from the platform live and virtually, and to enable
discussions about race and racism within their congregations, and online. In addition to knowing about
existing efforts to discuss race and racism within their churches, videos could include historical
knowledge of prior efforts. Artifacts in the form of church histories, and other relevant documents were
viewed as accessed online via church websites.
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Interview Participants
In this study, I interviewed Christian pastors in the United States utilizing semi-structured
interviews regarding the role of Christian pastors and churches in facilitating dialogue about race and
racism, and diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts. Twenty-five pastors (16 Black, and 9 White) were
identified during purposeful sampling and snowballing (via personal contacts or my network), and
invited to participate via email. I conducted 45-to-60-minute individual interviews with seven Black
pastors in predominantly Black churches (PBC), and six White pastors of predominantly White churches
(PWC). I used pseudonyms for all pastors (see Table 2). Two participants used titles other than “Pastor.”
“Elder” was defined by one participant as having similar responsibilities to pastors, except they did not
function in a lead or senior pastoral position, and one “ Bishop” previously held the senior pastor title. I
will use the term “Pastor” to refer to all participants.
Pastor Demographics
The pastors I interviewed were predominantly male (12 of 14). This was not intentional, but
according to 2020 U.S. Census Bureau data, this percentage (86% male, 14% female) closely mirrors the
population of Christian pastors in the United States (87% male, 13% female; Zippia, 2023). Two churches
in my study were initially described as predominantly White, but in my study were self-described by the
pastors as Multiracial (one pastor preferred the term “Multi -ethnic,” but I use the code “MRC” to
identify both churches throughout this paper). Both pastors self-identified as White (Pastor Larry, and
Pastor Paul). In both cases, these pastors said that their backgrounds and lived experiences growing up
in predominantly Black communities positively influenced the level of diversity in their churches.
Table 2 provides individual demographic information for each pastor, along with titles,
denominations, and the predominant race/ethnicity of their church congregations as reported by the
pastors.
42

Table 2
Pastor Demographics

Pseudonym Race/
ethnicity
Gender Title Denomination Predominant
congregation
Pastor Andrew Black Male Pastor None Black
Pastor Janice Black Female Elder AME Black
Pastor Bobby Black Male Lead Pastor/
Superintendent
Free
Methodist
Black
Pastor Carl
Pastor Belinda

Black
Hispanic
Male
Female
Lead Pastor Foursquare White
Pastor Daniel Black Male Bishop None Black
Pastor Eric Black Male Pastor None Black
Pastor
Phillip

Black Male Pastor United
Methodist
Black
Pastor Edward White Male Senior Pastor Foursquare White
Pastor James White Male Lead Pastor Baptist White
Pastor Tim White Male Co-Pastor Foursquare White
Pastor Larry White Male Senior Pastor None Multiracial
Pastor Robert White Male Senior Pastor Baptist White
Pastor Paul White Male Lead Pastor None Multi-ethnic

Note. Pastors Carl and Barbara are husband and wife co-pastors who interviewed together, and were
counted as one interview, and as one pastor. However, some comments by Pastor Barbara are included
in the narratives. Pastor Tim also co-pastors with his wife, but only he was interviewed.
The ages of pastors ranged from 39 to 70. Table 3 displays the age range of pastors by race.
Table 3
Pastor’s Age

Black pastors (n=7) White pastors (n=6)
Age Count Age Count
Under 30 0 Under 30 0
31-40 1 31-40 0
43

41-50 2 41-50 3
51-60 1 51-60 2
Over 60 3 Over 60 1

Length of service at current churches ranged from a few months to more than 40 years,
although the total length of ministry experience was significant for all pastors, with none having served
under 16 years. Table 4 displays the length of time at their current churches for all pastors.
Table 4
Years at Current Church
Black pastors (n=7) White pastors (n=6)
Years Count Years Count
1-5 years 2 1-5 years 0
6-10 years 0 6-10 years 3
11-15 years 2 11-15 years 0
16-20 years 1 16-20 years 3
Over 20 years 2 Over 20 years 0

Total time in ministry for each pastor ranged from 17 to almost 50 years. Table 5 reports total
time in ministry for pastors.
Table 5
Total Years in Ministry
Black pastors (n=7) White pastors (n=6)
Total years in ministry Total years in ministry
1-5 years 0 1-5 years 0
6-10 years 0 6-10 years 0
11-15 years 0 11-15 years 0
16-20 years 3 16-20 years 0
Over 20 years 4 Over 20 years 6

Church Demographics
Church geographic location was a function of which pastors responded to the invitation to
participate. Three geographic regions of the United States were represented by participating pastors.
Table 6 displays church locations by U.S. region for all participants.
44

Table 6
Church Location
Black pastors (n=7) White pastors (n=6)
Church U.S. locations Church U.S. locations
Pacific Northwest 1 Pacific Northwest 2
Southern California 5 Southern California 3
Southeast 1 Southeast 1
The churches (n=13) represent significant differences in size. Nine, or five of seven Black pastors,
and four of six White pastors, reported membership roll and Sunday attendance at over 500. Actual pre-
pandemic membership numbers ranged from a low of 100 for one church to a high of 20,000 for
another. Five of thirteen pastors reported membership rolls of 10,000 or more. Notably, Sunday
attendance exceeded the membership roll in some cases. For one church, this was attributed to having
engaged with a virtual audience long before the COVID-19 pandemic, and routinely including those
virtual counts in their Sunday attendance numbers. Table 7 provides information on pre-pandemic
membership roll, and Sunday attendance numbers.
Table 7
Church Attendance and Membership
Pastor’s estimated Sunday
attendance (pre-pandemic)

Pastor’s estimated membership roll
number (pre-pandemic)

Count
Black
pastors
(n=7)
White
pastors
(n=6)
Count
Black
pastors
(n=7)
White
pastors
(n=6)
Under 100 0 0 Under 100 0 0
101-300 2 0 101-300 0 0
301-500 0 2 301-500 1 1
Over 500 5 4 Over 500 5 4

Note. One PWC and one PBC had no membership roll numbers.

45

Instrumentation
I used an interview guide (Weiss, 1994) with demographic questions and open-ended questions
that were asked of each participant, but that also allowed me to use probes that led to new questions
for each respondent (Patton, 2002). I developed interview questions, and related question probes
(Robinson & Leonard, 2019). Probes were used to further reveal or clarify participant responses to
interview questions (Merriam & Tisdell, 2016). Some probes were pre-designed, and others were
spontaneous based on the participant’s answers. Final data are, therefore, different for each
interviewee.
The flexibility of the semi-structured interview allowed for the stories of Black pastors to be
centered, consistent with CRT. I utilized Merriam and Tisdell’s (2016) ethical checklist (p. 264) to craft
my introduction, which included the purpose of the research, information about confidentiality, and
informed consent practices. Merriam and Tisdell also provided a helpful catalog of types of questions,
among them background/demographic questions. Although Rosenberg (2017) recommended asking
demographic questions last, I started with them because we were talking about the demographics of the
church, and of the respondent, and this provided a useful context as I proceeded. (See Appendix A for
the interview questions.) I also first asked the respondent’s understanding of terms that I used
throughout each interview (e.g., diversity, equity, and inclusion or “DEI”; race; racism ; and systemic
racism). I asked these “knowledge questions” (Merriam & Tisdell, 2016, p. 118) to see if our definitions
were congruent, and to later compare respondent definitions for similarities and differences during data
analysis. Merriam and Tisdell’s question types helped me develop questions that asked about
respondent experience and behavior (e.g., “Describe any times you have spoken about race and/or
racism from your pulpit or in a church meeting”); revealed their opinions and values (e.g., “What do you
believe is a pastor’s role, if any, in facilitating discussions about race and racism in their church?”);
ascertained their feelings, (e.g., “Describe a time when you talked about race and/or racism with a Black
46

pastor.“); and learn how they experience certain situations (e.g., “How did your congregation receive
it?“).
Stressing the importance of how questions are asked, and the types of questions asked, Patton
(2002) underscored that the quality of the information gained in an interview depends largely on the
quality of the interviewer. Maxwell (2013) stated that we should be aware that while we are sampling
people, we are also sampling “settings, events, and processes” (p. 97), and it is important to consider
which of these areas will yield the most relevant – and the richest – data.
Data Collection Procedures
The data collection process for this qualitative research study began with identifying possible
interviewees through purposeful sampling and snowballing, and then conducting semi-structured
interviews on the Zoom video platform while recording live, verbatim transcripts. Artifacts were
reviewed in online sources, and processed utilizing text from the site, observation notes, and my
reflections as a researcher.
Data Analysis
The process of data analysis in a qualitative study with interviews can be manual, where the
researcher begins by reading each interview transcript, and noting comments, observations, and
questions in the document margins (Gibbs, 2018). Alternatively, the process can be electronic using a
computer-assisted qualitative data analysis software (CAQDAS), such as Atlas.ti (Merriam & Tisdell,
2016). For this qualitative study, I used Atlas.ti to code and otherwise process the interview data, which
allowed me to organize the information electronically, and more efficiently manage data during analysis.
I first created 20 a priori codes. A priori codes are those created prior to any coding (Gibbs,
2018). As coding progressed, I added new codes (known as open coding; Gibbs, 2018), and merged or
deleted codes to refine the code list (axial coding, Gibbs, 2018).
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I analyzed interviews by document groups (Black pastors=S; White pastors=P), numbered in the
following order: S1 through S7, and P1 through P6. The initial a priori codes were used for the first
interview. Many of the a priori codes from the first interview showed up in subsequent interviews for
both groups. New codes were added with each interview to capture new areas of discussion in those
interviews. After the third interview, I began refining the code book and establishing code hierarchies to
manage the increasing number of codes better and eliminate redundancy. I also expanded the codes in
some cases, such as for “Church” (e.g., Church Leadership, Church H istorical Context, etc.).
Trustworthiness and Credibility
Merriam and Tisdell (2016) underscored that credibility and methodology are critical to
qualitative research, and that researchers must think rigorously about what methods they will use and
how they will analyze data. University Institutional Review Boards set standards that help researchers
achieve the goals of data credibility and trustworthiness by determining and instituting guidelines for
research that include informed consent, clearly stating the purpose of the study, engaging in ethical
considerations, and incorporating standards for validity.
I worked to ensure the credibility and trustworthiness of my qualitative research findings in the
following ways outlined by Merriam & Tisdell (2016):
1. Triangulation: I used member checks, observation, and artifacts to triangulate data.
Triangulation increases the trustworthiness of data, and was achieved by using multiple data
sources including interviews, observations, and artifacts.
2. I spent sufficient time collecting data; established a clear audit trail for my study; provided
thick, rich description; and took advantage of review by and discussions with peers and faculty
advisors regarding the data.
3. Critical Self-Reflection: CRT embeds my positionality, and requires me to utilize my
assumptions, biases, and perspectives as I collected and analyzed data. This included how
48

respondents viewed me as the researcher, and a need to be aware of power dynamics, cultural
differences, and systems of oppression.
Ethics
The ethical behavior and choices of the researcher also determine the credibility and
trustworthiness of the study, and methodology is key to solid research. Both quantitative and qualitative
research require rigorous thinking about methods and analysis (Merriam & Tisdale, 2016). For my
qualitative research study, I gave thought to the following:
1. Consent: I fully described what was expected of participants, and distributed information sheets
in advance. I reviewed the information sheets and participant rights at the beginning of each
interview, and received permission before starting to audio and/or video record the interview,
as well as before capturing live transcripts of the interview.
2. I assured participants that data will remain confidential, and will only be shared in aggregate
form, or used with pseudonyms. I also let them know that some qualitative data are more useful
with some identifiers (e.g., quotes with participant descriptors like race, gender, age – but not
names). At the time of the initial informed consent, I let participants know that I would request
permission for any quotes with attributions from volunteers who were willing to allow portions
or all of their stories to be reported in this way.
3. Compensation/Incentives: I offered access to my final report as an incentive.
4. Power Dynamics/Coercion: I remained mindful that some participants might say what they
thought I wanted to hear, rather than what they honestly felt. I did not intentionally persuade
participants to answer or behave in a certain way, and remained aware of my worldview and
biases throughout each interview.
Three foundational elements undergirding my study made it critical that Black narratives remain
the central focus of my study: I remained cognizant that the goal of the critical, transformative
49

worldview is change. I asked myself, “How will I effectively moderate my own positionality, while
successfully centering participant voices?” I have given careful thought to how I framed the value of
participating in this study for Black participants, and noted that my positionality as a Black woman who
has the lived experience of both overt and subtle racism in this country would impact the value
statements I made, and the kinds of questions that I posed for both Black and White participants.
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Chapter Four: Findings
It is not surprising that challenges regarding race, racism, DEI, and related issues exist in U.S.
churches. In Chapter One I noted that, for purposes of this study, the church is viewed as a microcosm of
the larger U.S. society (Burns et al., 2014). In line with this thinking, commentary from both Black and
White pastors points out that the church as an organization faces many of the same issues that exist in
the greater U.S. society.
I have purposely centered the voices of Black pastors in this study. Their stories and
counternarratives provide the focus for our discussion about race, racism, and DEI in the church and
beyond. Comments provided by White pastors serve to elucidate the challenges that Black pastors, and
their congregations face around race and racism.
Black Pastors’ Views on Race and Racism
A number of factors emerged regarding the Black pastors in this study that impacted their
discussions about race and racism. First, there is a continuum of thought that spans the spectrum from
racial silence to racial dialogue. Second, Black pastors reported similarities, and differences in how they
responded to issues of race and racism in this country. For example, Pastor Eric perceived such
differences in Black clerical colleagues from different geographic locations than his.
I have pastor friends who are in the Midwest and back East, and I have to admit to some degree
their worldview was a little bit different than mine, because their context is a little bit different.
Some of them live in a space in a very conservative part of the country. So it's very Republican.
And so things that they have to deal with are a lot more overt, and intentional. So they are much
more in protest of anything that does not fully support an agenda that would nurture and
advocate for all concerns and matters of Black family, Black people, Black church. They're a little
bit more radical, some a lot more radical, than I am being on the West Coast.
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This comment suggests that Black pastors’ attitudes and reactions to issues having to do with race and
racism are shaped in part by where they live.
Third, Black pastors have different approaches, but agree that biblical text guides them about
when to speak about race and racism from the pulpit.
So, as a pastor, not only do I have to look at my society and be relevant to it in the sense of what
is actually plaguing the region that I'm in, and how do we navigate this? But also as a bible
teacher, what does the scripture say about this topic? (Pastor Carl)
All of the Black pastors agreed that the Bible gives them license to address race and racism in their
messages when it appears in scripture. Pastor Andrew routinely addresses the “…cultural or ethnic
background of a key figure in scripture that causes [him] to then deviate towards the kinds of prejudices
they may have been dealing with….” In this way, the pastor relates scripture in some way to present day
issues around race and racism.
However, Black pastors also emphasized that racial dialogue prompted by other motivators
(e.g., a traumatic racial event in the city, region or country) is needed. Pastor Bobby said, “I did a series
about [race and racism] right after the George Floyd murder, and then the follow up with the Ahmaud
Arbery killing. I did more of a sermon series at those times, so that was 2020.” After George Floyd’s
death, Pastor Andrew did a Sunday series presented live and online about race, racism, and the church
that lasted for more than a year. These types of extended teachings were atypical among this group of
Black pastors.
Black Pastors’ Reactions to Talking About Race and Racism
Black pastors described varied reactions that they experience or observe in other Black pastors
when engaged in racial dialogue in predominantly White environments. I have grouped these reactions
into four categories:
• Acculturate
52

• Educate
• Mitigate
• Challenge
Figure 2 is a graphic depiction of these reactions.
Figure 2
How Black Pastors Respond to Racial Dialogue in White Environments

To expand on the definitions in Figure 2, by “Acculturate” I mean that the Black pastor has
adapted to the norms of the White environment or culture in order to continue the work in a
predominantly White church, organization or community. One example of acculturation given by Pastor
Carl involved a senior Black Pastor who had led a predominantly White congregation for many years,
and who had been living and pastoring in a predominantly White area for several decades.
[H]e's almost oblivious to the race conversation. So, for a better word, he's…assimilated so
much into the White culture…he doesn't even think about it anymore. So as I was sharing my
experiences early on with him, it was reminding him that he was Black….
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Black pastors who find themselves in White environments over extended periods of time may find it
necessary to “fit in,” and may not have access to other Black pastors on a regular basis.
By “Educate” I mean that Black pastors are either call ed upon or volunteer to explain some facet
of the Black experience that is under discussion in a church, organization, political, or social arena. Two
Black pastors shared their experiences as part of a predominantly White clerical group. Pastor
Bobby described this experience.
I'm part of a peer group where I'm the only Black person in the group, so I get a lot of questions.
They're often interested in my opinion of things, of the national news that would share the
concerns or fears of Black people.
The expectation that they (Black pastors) will be asked to educate their White peers on issues related to
race and racism is an experience that is not reserved for Black clergy alone; it is the experience of Black
people in many different environments, and one against which there has been a great deal of pushback
recently (Melaku et al., 2020).
By “Mitigate” I mean that Black pastors may act as informal mediators to de -escalate or
minimize pushback that results from a controversy, or resistance to the race-related topic under
discussion. Pastor Daniel talked about one such episode.
I'm on this board of a pretty influential ministry [and] we're in [the Midwest for a] board
meeting. They talked about this “woke” thinking. I’m just kind of quiet with th em, you know. So
finally in the end, I said, “What do you all mean by woke?” And they kind of got guarded, and
they really couldn’t explain it. So I said, “Well, let me tell you what Black folks think about it. ”
In this instance, when there was an opportunity to address White resistance to racial dialogue about the
historical harms Black people have experienced, Pastor Daniel seized the opportunity.
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By “Challenge” I mean that the pastor names microaggressions in real -time with the goal of
changing offending language and behavior. Pastor Carl recounted a conversation about being Black and
moving to a predominantly White city.
I just had a gentleman two days ago ask me about my family experience moving here. He was [a]
White, older man, and I was telling him – because I'm trying not to be so vague in my responses
– I’m trying to be honest. And so I gave him my honest response about how we've wrestled
through some tight moments, and things of that nature concerning race. He said, “Oh, you
know, it just happens everywhere. That happened to me.” He lives in [a predominantly White,
midwestern state]. “That happened to me when I moved to [that state, he said].” And so, huh!
In my mind, I let it go…. Obviously, [being] a White man in America is not my experience in
America, so we can't be so dismissive about other people's experiences because you've never
had them.
Pastor Carl’s experience was not the only example of a Black pastor in this study who experienced a
microaggression. In this case, Pastor Carl’s experience was disregarded, and invalidated by the man’s
response (Sue, 2007).
Just as the opinions of Black pastors regarding race and racism are not monolithic, neither are
their reactions to such matters. Black pastors experience frustration with the inaction and racial silence
of White clergy, whether in their immediate circles or on a broader organizational or societal level.
Pastor Janice talked about the feelings that emerge among Black pastors when discussing the subject.
“[F]eelings are often borderline…bo rderline anger, certainly discomfort, [and] fatigue, right? Fatigue
because you get tired of it…of addressing the same subjects all the time. Humiliation. Yeah.” Varied
opinions about how to respond to race-related discussions surfaced throughout the interviews. Other
Black pastors in this study expressed similar feelings, which may border on or even tip over into
burnout. The term “burnout” was coined by American Psychologist Herbert Freudenberger in the 1970s
55

when it was described as “the consequence of h igh stress and high ideals in the helping professions”
(NIH National Library of Medicine, 2020, para. 1). Since then, the concept has been expanded to apply to
anyone, and symptoms typically include exhaustion, and frustration (NIH National Library of Medicine,
2020, para. 3).
Talking About Race and Racism from the Pulpit
Views are mixed for both Black pastors and White pastors in this study when it comes to talking
about race and racism from the pulpit. Pastor Carl, for example, addressed the subject in his new church
when he felt circumstances compelled it.
So, moving here in the middle of the pandemic, after the summer of 2020, after all of us
witnessing and experiencing a lot of the same things, and you know, finding the divide where we
came into a culture that was very, very much “Blue lives matter”, not “Black lives”…There was
already a built-in opportunity to talk about race.
Although Pastor Carl had some misgivings later about the timing of tackling the subject, saying, “I think
personally I jumped in too quickly because I didn't have the relational equity to be able to talk about it
with them on that level,” his co -pastor and wife, Pastor Barbara, felt he had done the right thing. “I think
it was necessary. It was necessary at the time because it was really bad, and we had to think about our
children. We had to think about the other people in the place. It was necessary.” Although Black Pastors
will engage in racial dialogue, some also struggle with the White discomfort that comes with it.
Those pastors who prefer to speak about the subject using biblical text during a bible study or
sermon use different approaches. One Black Pastor (Pastor Andrew) put it this way: “[Some] [k]ey
figures in scripture have been shown as White, and that's not true. So anytime I have an opportunity to
tell the truth of Moses’ countenance or Paul's countenance or how Jesus most likely looked, I go for it!”
Another Black pastor (Pastor Eric) sometimes intentionally selects a bible passage with references to
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race and discrimination, and incorporates that into the teaching, rather than preparing a specific
response to a racial or political issue of the day.
I have a couple of friends that are like, “Okay, we're gonna do hot topics. And we're gonna do
one week on racism, and one week on this, and one week on this.” [I] tend not to do that
because [I] find that draws attention to the subject in a way that gets people all ramped up and
prepared to fight, especially when it's in the news.
A White pastor (Pastor James) used a similar approach to Pastor Eric.
There have been several times when I have chosen to go through books of the Bible where I
knew this subject would come up, where I knew I would have at least one week with that in part
of the message I could talk about. Rather than…spend a week talking about racism, which some
of the people in our congregation would view as a socially driven, topical discussion, I would say,
okay, well, let me just go through a book [the Bible], and then we'll talk about it because it came
up.
Both Black and White pastors made choices about how best to approach the subject of race and racism
from the pulpit using biblical text.
Black and White pastors utilized special celebrations and church events resulting from Black
holidays or cultural traditions. A White pastor (Pastor Tim, PWC) said his church “…utilizes the Martin
Luther King, Jr. holiday as an intentional time.” A Black pastor (Pastor Andrew, PBC) referenced
Juneteenth, among other holidays, as being routinely incorporated into his church’s congregational life.
Predominantly Black congregations represented in this study were typically described as more
receptive to messages about race and racism from the pulpit than predominantly White congregations,
although pastors pointed out congregational support in both groups. Pastor Phillip, a Black pastor (PBC)
said, “It's been my experience that most White clergy do not want to talk about it from the pulpit. They
are the ones who tend to be much more reluctant [about] the responses – that they may get problems
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[from] their congregations.” Pastor Andrew believed that congregations support having more racial
dialogue, and are ready – even expecting it.
[T]he congregation is already in the supportive mode. They're just waiting for somebody…for
paths just to talk about this kind of stuff. They're waiting for ministry gifts [those in ministry
roles] to touch on, and reveal, and share these kinds of truths from the pulpit. So the support
from the congregation is already there.
White pastors were sometimes less willing to pursue the subject if they received resistance from
members.
One White pastor decided to avoid discussing issues on both the far-right and the left during the
COVID-19 pandemic.
We didn't say certain things that some of the far-right people in our congregation wanted us to
say, and at the same time we didn't spend a lot of time talking about some of the hot issues
[that are] kind of more on the left…. And so, as a result, the people that we have now are people
that are not far right. They want a good bible church that's gonna address stuff, but is also not
going to address stuff in a way that's going to kick up a lot of dirt.
Black pastors seemed to be less hindered by congregational resistance to these topics than White
pastors, although pastors in both groups underscored the fact that not all Black congregants felt the
same way. In particular, it was noted that Black immigrants do not necessarily hold the same views as
American-born Black people about race and racism because of their different lived experiences in this
country. One White pastor held that immigrant groups did not engage with issues of race and racism in
the United States in the same way because they largely perceive the United States as a land of
opportunity, whereas American-born Black people must contend with the country’s historical context of
slavery, Jim Crow, and present-day outcomes of institutionalized racism.
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Two White pastors, and two Black pastors said they have lost White members or been
confronted by them after talking about race and racism from the pulpit. Pastors made a variety of
comments about their members who left. Pastor Tim, a White pastor, said “The ones that left [told him].
“You're woke. You're just giving in to culture. You're not really standing up for the truth.” Another pastor
had no regrets about those who left. “You know that not everyone is going to stay, and pretty much
most of the people [who were resistant have left]. And I think that's a success. Because that's not the
kind of church we're trying to have in here…even though it's a hard one because it doesn't grow your
church fast” (Pastor Barbara). In this case, member loss was less important than making sure the
members and their families who stayed would not be subjected to racial trauma or harm.
Talking to Black Pastors
Black and White pastors in the study were asked to describe a time when they talked about
race and racism to a Black pastor. Pastor Bobby, a Black pastor, when asked his feelings about talking to
Black pastors, said this:
I have two feelings that I recognize quickly, always in the conversation. One is [that] I learn a lot.
It gives me a better perspective, and it also just really enriches my sensitivity, my awareness of
things that I should be concerned [with]. It gives me a language and a perspective that I just
didn't see, did not know. And it really helps me in my personal conversations or other meetings
when I go back to my home church or deal with people that I have my own influence with.
All the Black pastors in this study said they did not have a problem discussing race and racism with other
Black pastors, and described their experiences in a largely positive light. In his second point, Pastor
Bobby also acknowledged his limits when discussing such issues with Black pastors.
And then, secondly, usually there's oftentimes a line that's crossed where I'm unwilling to go.
Just that. An anger or rage that just seems to need to be expressed, that I don't think is
productive in the long run. So usually I learn a lot. But it usually comes to a point where that's
about as far as I can go with this, and I stop.
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Pastor Janice said, “I felt good, and probably more in solidarity. It was probably more of a synergy, an
energy – more of an affirmation, rather than educating.” Surprise was sometimes expressed if other
Black pastors held unexpectedly different views. After his move from a very diverse city to a new church
in a predominantly White city, Pastor Carl described his feelings. “Man, I feel like before moving here
[talking to Black pastors] was not an issue. You know we could talk about it, and have an understanding
of the experience.” Meeting Black pastors with divergent views about race and racism was common, but
meeting pastors who had no views at all on the subject was unsettling.
Talking to White Pastors
Black and White pastors were asked to describe a time when they talked to a White pastor.
Black pastors talked about the discomfort White pastors have when discussing race and racism, and
indicated their thoughts about the broader implications for the nation.
[N]ot everybody wants to talk about it. Some people automatically feel like you're saying that
they're the problem…but this is a problem. And we need to be aware of it because it doesn't just
affect one segment of people…. It affects the very fabric of our nation. And we need to address
it (Pastor Carl).
Pastor Bobby echoed this sentiment.
[I’m] trying to have a conversation [with White pastors]. Even though they appea r to be
empathetic…it felt like there was no progress. Yeah, I feel like what I was saying did not connect,
so I knew that I would not try to have…a healthy dialogue with them. Yeah, I remember they felt
a little defensive, too.
Pastor Carl reflected on his experience talking to White pastors, as well. “We have been in group
settings where I've shared my experience, or just the tensions of being here, and people shut down.
[They do] not know how to respond to it.” Black pastors acknowledge that White pasto rs may not know
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how to engage effectively in racial dialogue with them, but this knowledge does not make that fact any
less frustrating.
While Black pastors often expressed frustration about the challenges of racial dialogue with
White pastors, they also acknowledged that they should be careful of their White colleagues’ feelings
whenever they are discussing these subjects.
It's hard to talk about racism in any context. [H]ow you address it has to be delicate because the
goal is not to injure people. [Helping] people heal is the bottom line. When it comes to racism,
we're all wounded (Pastor Janice).
Black pastors are empathetic to the discomfort of White pastors, but urge them to lean in and engage in
racial dialogue, no matter how uncomfortable. Pastor Andrew believes White pastors “ have the support
of Black people within the church…. They just have to step out and speak up.” Black pastors expressed a
continued willingness to have racial dialogue, whether in public meetings or in individual conversations
with White clergy, and congregants. White pastors commented on White discomfort, as well.
I've had multiple conversations with White pastors, and…the good news is, I find more that
actually care, and want to learn than those [who] are afraid, and stay in their corner and lob
accusations and [labels] like ‘woke’ at people (Pastor Tim) .
White pastors acknowledge the need for more racial dialogue, and talk to one another about it.
Understanding of DEI, Racism in the United States, and DEI Terminology Usage in Church Settings
DEI has become a staple in organizations across the United States (Creary et al., 2021), and
exploded at an unprecedented rate since 2020 after George Floyd’s murder, and other highly visible and
tragic losses of African American lives (Ferdman, 2020; Melaku et al., 2020). DEI staffing and best
practices have been widely implemented in private, public, and non-profit settings for years, yet it
seems from my discussions with these pastors, not to have taken a foothold in the same way in Christian
churches, many of which are of significant size and influence (see church demographics in this chapter).
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In reviewing the thirteen church websites of study participants, I found no specific references to
“DEI”, and no pro minent usage of DEI-terminology. The term “diversity” was used in at least one
instance, two sites included references to “social justice”, and one specifically addressed “racism”. Some
Black churches, and some White churches had no diverse images displayed, while others did to varying
degrees. See Table 8 for a description of church website content by pastor.
Table 8
DEI Elements on Church Websites

Black Pastors
Church by pastor Congregation Text/content Diverse images
1. Andrew PBC Biblical Yes
2. Janice PBC Biblical+ NF
3. Bobby PBC Biblical Yes+
4. Carl/Barbara PWC Biblical Yes
5. Daniel PBC Biblical NF
6. Eric PBC Biblical* NF
7. Phillip

PBC Biblical* NF

White Pastors
Church by pastor Congregation Text/content Diverse images
1. Edward PWC Biblical Some
2. James PWC Biblical Some
3. Tim PWC NF Some
4. Larry MRC Yes Yes
5. Robert PBC Biblical Yes+
6. Paul MRC Yes NF

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Note. PBC=Predominantly Black Congregation. PWC=Predominantly White Congregation.
MRC=Multiracial Congregation. Biblical=scripture-based mission statement. Biblical+=scripture-based
mission statement plus other language, such as social justice, equity, race, racism, or other DEI related
terms. Yes+=Diverse images plus diverse staff. NF=Not found in significant numbers.
Unsurprisingly, images on church websites typically reflected the congregational makeup,
whether predominantly Black, predominantly White, or multiracial. It was clear that the pastors in this
study understood the DEI terms we discussed during our interviews (e.g., diversity as representation,
equity as fairness and access, and inclusion as a welcoming environment). It was also clear that pastors
did not routinely use these terms in reference to any work within their churches that could be labeled as
DEI initiatives. However, there were examples on two of the websites of predominantly Black churches
about their initiatives regarding social, and racial justice. One of the websites had more extensive
references to race and racism, plus access to related resources made available through the church’s
denomination.
Overall, pastors shared a great deal of information about what they are doing, and did name
initiatives and programs that sound like DEI. Most, however, simply do not use DEI terminology, or
reference formal DEI programs. As one pastor put it when discussing church diversity in our interview,
“No matter where you’re coming from, no matter what your background, no matter who you find
yourself in relationship with, you’re welcome here, and we want you here.” This sounds very much like
the DEI mission statements that many other types of organizations create. Even though these churches
may not have formal DEI programs or specific DEI statements listed on their websites, they are doing
work that falls into this area. We also know from the 2022 Lifeway Research 100 Largest Churches
survey that 88% of White pastors who responded to the survey want diversity in their churches. Some of
the ways in which the churches represented in this study informally address DEI are displayed in Table
9.
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Table 9
Pastor Responses Regarding DEI-Related Initiatives in Their Churches
Pastor Pastor responses regarding DEI-related initiatives

Pastor
Phillip
(PBC)

Partnered with a Jewish organization, and local university musicians to put on a music
concert with people from all religions.
Had a Filipino student intern in their youth department.
Partnered with a few medical facilities to become a COVID-19 vaccination site in the
Black community where the church is located that also welcomed other races,
ethnicities, nationalities, demographics and economic backgrounds.

Pastor Tim
(PWC)

Held a faith community gathering and celebration in partnership with a Black Church in
a neighboring city with live and online access.
Celebrate Black holidays like MLK Day and Juneteenth.
Participated in the first MLK march in the history of the city during MLK weekend;
announced it in our services.
Created space on our website; included Dr. King's “I Have A Dream” speech.
Provide book resources annually for the congregation to be learners.
Held staff trainings and small groups around racial reconciliation in our congregation.
Numerous iterations of opportunities for learning.

Pastor
James
(PWC)
Reviewed and ensured diverse website, video and marketing content.
Executive team consists of elders made up of five men and women who maintain a
focus on and have intentional discussion about diversity on church teams, among
volunteers, and in ministries, and outreach projects.

Pastor
Bobby
(PWC)

Licensed at least half a dozen, if not a dozen, women into ministry.
Advocated and helped develop women into ordination.

Pastor
Robert
(MRC)
Intentionally transformed from an all-White leadership.
Brought people on staff to reflect our congregation’s diversity.
Invite guest bible teachers from other ethnicities to speak when I'm away.
Formed a focus group made up of every age demographic in our church (ages 13-80).
Will look for at least one representative from every ethnicity in our congregation.
[Note]I typically don't use the word race - I define it as ethnicity from a biblical
perspective).

Note. The pastors’ churches are coded: PWC=Predominantly White Church, PBC=Predominantly Black
Church, and MRC=Multiracial Church, which includes one pastor’s preferred term of “Multi-Ethnic”
church.
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Absence of Formal DEI Resources and Education
In regard to developing and moving DEI forward, pastors in this study often mentioned
“intentionality,” and the leadership of the pastor as key drivers. Pastor Dan (PBC) said, “Our church
always strove to get more racial diversity, and in the very beginning it was hard because more Black
people like our church.” He went on to say that the pastor in a church is really the key person, and that
in large churches, the pastor might entrust a staff person with the job. “But the pastor almost across the
board carries the heaviest influence in the church on everything. But sometimes, it’s a matter of his
time, and availability or interest.” An interesting note about diversity in the church from the White
pastor of the multi-ethnic church in this study was his opinion that traditionally White churches should
strive for diversity, but historically Black churches that have provided the primary impetus for significant
gains in racial justice in this country should retain their Black identity. One third of respondents to a
2019 Pew Research Center study that interviewed nearly 9,000 Black adults (non-Hispanic) agreed that
historically Black churches should preserve their legacies and cultural characteristics.
It could be argued that every church’s commitment to DEI concepts is found in and supported by
scripture. This is a point made by author Christian Smith in his book Divided By Faith (2020) when he
wrote, “In the United States, where Christianity continues to be the dominant religion…[i]t directs
[Christians] to value and desire openness, tolerance, and diversity”, views held by all the pastors in this
study. The point that is arguable is whether in light of this Christian commitment, formal DEI initiatives
in the church are needed or will be embraced.
Churches Are Organizations
The Cambridge Dictionary (n.d.) defines organizations as “a group of people who work together
in an organized way for a shared purpose.” By this de finition, churches are organizations. Driscoll and
Jenkins (2019) describe Christian churches in the United States as organizations that have unrealized
potential for improving racial and ethnic relations. Although some might argue that it is the mission of
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Christian churches to change the people, this does not negate the fact that the cultural norms of
organizations – including churches – have to be examined and recognized in order to embark on a
course of learning to develop new skills that will reduce implicit biases, and tear down systems that
sustain them (Garvin et al., 2008; Morrison & Milliken, 2000; Senge, 1990).
When talking about facilitating racial dialogue in churches, we are fundamentally talking about
organizational change. Any change effort requires leadership with the goals of shared understandings,
new ways of thinking, and a commitment to collaborative action (Brandt, 2011). Leaders of
organizations, which includes pastors, must model the behavior they want by calling out bias and giving
their people permission to do the same (Hecht, 2020). This will allow formally taboo subjects to be
addressed.
In a study of Fortune 500 executives, nearly two dozen executives were interviewed to find out
their views on racial equity (Hecht, 2020). These executives agreed racial equity is necessary, but they
did not know what to do about it, and so they were fearful of doing anything. The author explained that
early efforts by organizations to address systemic racism sought to help people of color "fit in" (p.2). He
subsequently realized in his own company that it was his organization's culture that was the problem.
He then committed to changing the organization, not the people. He called this “prioritizing humanity” –
an understanding that acknowledging the stories of people of color, and valuing their backgrounds was
important. In this study, I sought to prioritize humanity by centering the stories of Black pastors, and
their experiences with racial dialogue and racial silence in church organizations.
The Role of Church Oversight Bodies
The Black pastors in this study were quite thoughtful about the role they play in facilitating racial
dialogue. There was not as robust a discussion about their role in establishing formal DEI efforts, since
this was not specifically asked. However, they did offer their opinions about the influence of church
boards and denominational leadership (“the church oversight body”) on what pastors do relevant to
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DEI. When talking about the impact of church oversight bodies on their ability to talk freely about race
and racism in their churches, pastors held several views:
1. The church oversight body is very supportive. Pastor Tim said, “They care a great de al, and they
model for us engagement and conversations about racial diversity and inclusion.” In this case,
top leadership demonstrates the changes they want to see, and there is explicit support for
pastors to engage in racial dialogue.
2. They are very supportive, but they need to translate their words into action. Pastor Carl said, “I
believe that they are really trying to move in a direction that is anti-racist [and] inclusive; that is
diverse…. But they talk about it better than it's actually executed.” In this case, the oversight
body’s actions are perceived as performative.
3. There is laissez faire guidance that allows churches to do as they please. Pastor Eric commented
that, “In a non -denominational church you have more flexibility and autonomy in terms of how
and when you speak about those things.” Non -denominational churches may have the greatest
capacity to put specialized DEI programs in place.
4. There is little guidance or direction. Pastor James said, " We are part of an affiliation, but really
our relationship with the structure above our local congregation is not substantial.” In this case,
the church independently makes its own decisions, and similar to non-denominational churches,
may have greater decision-making power about implementing DEI initiatives.
5. There is historical resistance embedded in the church organization’s oversight body. Pastor Eric
said, “In denominationalism, you don't get to go against the rules and come in [as the top
leader] and change everything. [S]ome of the ones that I've seen try to make change pay a
heavy price themselves.” The traditional top leadership infrastructure does not allow changes to
be made easily.
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For the most part, Black and White pastors in this study considered themselves to be submitted to top
leadership, however, the expectations of top leadership, and the guidance it provided regarding racial
dialogue and DEI, differed.
How Do Pastors Deal With These Challenges?
A number of strategies were summarized from responses to the question: What kind of support
would you need to engage in racial dialogue on a regular basis? Pastor responses were compiled, and
are summarized in Table 10.
Table 10
Pastor Responses to Supports Needed for Regular Racial Dialogue

What kind of support would you need to engage in racial dialogue on a regular basis?
Denominational leadership support

Fiscal support (budget/staffing)

Psychological support (wellness initiatives)
Training and education (for staff and leadership)

Small groups (for stakeholders)
Focus groups (for learning)

Movie/book discussions (for congregations)

Note. Listed in no particular order.

In the next section, I use my research questions to dig deeper into the issues facing Black and
White pastors that emerged from the data around racial dialogue, and DEI efforts in these churches.
Research Question 1: How Are Race and Racism Presented and Discussed in
Churches that Serve Predominantly Black, and Predominantly White Congregations?
According to the study data, four motivators prompted pastors to discuss race and racism in
their churches. These motivators surfaced across racial lines. Figure 3 names these motivators (shown
in no particular order).
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Figure 3
Four Existing Motivators of Racial Dialogue in Churches

Motivator: Biblical Text
Biblical text addresses racial, ethnic, and class discrimination as presented in the course of a
pastor’s regular teachings and sermons. Both Black and White pastors referenced this method. As one
White pastor (Pastor Larry) explained, “When Jesus was desc ribing the Church, he made it very clear
that it existed with every tribe, tongue, and nation. So the church from an eternal perspective has
always existed from God's perspective as every tribe, tongue, and nation.” Although Black pastors
generally agreed with this point of view, they also more often expressed the need for both speaking out
when it arose in scripture, and when current events dictated it. A Black pastor (Pastor Andrew) said,
“[D]uring the pandemic, basically, right after George Floyd’s life was taken, I started a lesson. Of course
it was online only…. [for over a year]. I touched on denominations, orientations, and sectarianism in the
church. And then there's just been other times where I'll drop a little nugget here and there any time I
have the opportunity to articulate the reality of ethnicity in the Bible, in the scriptures….”
Pastors may use both methods to address issues of race and racism.

Organic or
Inten onal
BIBLICAL
TE T
Racial Heritage and
Historical Mission
CHURCH
LEGACY
RACIAL CRISIS
Racial
Dialogue
Local, Regional or
Na onal
RACIAL
CRISIS
Heritage Holidays and
Cultural Ac vi es
EVENTS
Carol Ross Burne 2023
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Pastor Tim, a White pastor, agreed that White clergy need to speak up, and framed it as a
biblical mandate.
Oh, I think pastors need to take responsibility…. We have to, as pastors…. [It is] inherent to the
Christian gospel. God is at His core a reconciler. He's a connector, and so if we're going to be
anything like [God], which is what the Church is called to be – to believe in and to be formed by
the person of Jesus – we will be those who go after others, who see others, who connect with
others. [R]ather than viewing differences as a threat, view differences as something beautiful,
something that can enhance, something that we can so appreciate.
It was important to all the pastors that they align the tenets of the Bible with what they say about race
and racism from the pulpit.
Motivator: Church Legacy
Two pastors, Pastor Janice and Pastor Phillip, were associated with Black churches that had
historical legacies tied to social and racial justice. Pastor Janice’s church is an African American
denomination, and Pastor Phillip’s church, although traditionally Black, is part of a larger denomination
that is predominantly White. Both talked about how their congregants were very comfortable with their
pastors speaking about race and racism from the pulpit, and engaging in racial dialogue and related
activities on a regular basis. Both churches also have a tradition of being engaged in social and political
activism. Both churches have deep roots in their respective Black communities, and nurture the sense of
pride in their churches that has existed for decades.
Pastor Janice talked about their engagement with these issues as more than a single Black
holiday celebration. “Black History Month, there's an expectation, right? But it's all the time; it really is.
There is an expectation.” In other words, Black history must be viewed as something more than a one -
month celebration. Pastor Phillip expounded on the fact that a previous, renowned pastor of his church
was prominent in the Civil Rights Movement, and so the congregation is accustomed to hearing about
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issues related to race, racism, and social justice on a regular basis. Speaking about race and racism
should not be relegated to special times, or treated as performative.
Motivator: Events
Black and White pastors in the study named African American celebrations and holidays such as
Black History month, Martin Luther King, Jr.’s birthday, and Juneteenth as motivators for engaging in
racial dialogue. Pastors mentioned these or other types of cultural event that enabled the congregation
and others to interact with one another, reflect on and acknowledge Black contributions, and honor the
legacy of Black people in this country. In some cases, they partnered with other churches or community
organizations to do so. A 2021 Pew Research Institute study found that 75% of the Black Americans
surveyed (nearly 9,000 Black adults over the age of 18) stated that standing against racism was essential
to their faith (across all religious groups), so it is not unusual that churches would create and participate
in these kinds of events.
Motivator: Racial Crisis
Tragic events, and crises involving Black people in the United States that provoke a local,
national or regional outcry that prompt pastors to speak out against racism is another motivation for
racial dialogue. Most every pastor mentioned this type of incident as a motivator, particularly when
George Floyd and Breonna Taylor were killed by police, and Ahmaud Arbery was killed by White men
when running in a White neighborhood. Pastor Dan, a Black pastor, expressed anger when a White
colleague talked to him about George Floyd’s murder.
Good friend of mine…shortly after the George Floyd situation…. He called me, [I] took his call,
mega church, good guy. Okay? And I never talked to him about what he said. I had to process
it…. He wanted to get my take on things, and I gave him s ome perspective. [He said]. “Well, I
heard that he was selling drugs, and he had been in jail, and he was hooked on drugs,” and stuff
like that. And I'm thinking, what does that have to do with this man being beaten or strangled to
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death? And he said he talked to his friends about it, and I’m thinking, “That’s how some White
folks think? It's crazy, and they are believers…they think he deserved it, that it’s his fault! I
mean, I just would have been upset like I'm upset now. I would have been asking, “Man. What's
wrong with you? [Is] this how you treat the Black people in your church?”
Pastor Eric’s position was clear: Racial dialogue where White people blame the victim is a phenomenon
that must be avoided.
In addition, Black pastors are frustrated when White clergy remain silent about such things.
Pastor Eric went on to describe a time when a White colleague was silent.
I know [White Pastors] who are friends of mine who might love and appreciate [me who] didn't
say anything [about offensive language in the public square that he perceived as racist]. And I
said this to one the other day; I said, “I think…pastors should not just be praying for a President,
or praying for leaders, they should call the country out when there are things that are wrong.”
However, Pastor Eric did not limit this observation to White people. He went on to say that “…when
Black people do things that are wrong…those Black officers who just beat this guy to death the other
day…that's wrong. We should call that out, you know.” Everyo ne, White or Black, should be held
accountable for their actions.
There was some agreement from White pastors on these points. In particular, Pastor Paul
passionately underscored his opinion with this example:
When I was [doing research for my doctorate] I interviewed a lot of old[er] White people…and I
would ask them…”Hey, what happened in church the Sunday after Martin Luther King, Jr. was
assassinated?” [Silence.] “And you were [in Los Angeles] for the ‘92 riots?” What happened in
church that Sunday?” C rickets! So I personally think…if something goes down in the culture
that's substantial…it's…incumbent on me to say something about it.
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There was consensus among these pastors that White pastors should be willing to challenge White
pastors and churches who remain silent on critical issues concerning race and racism.
Even with his negative experiences talking to White pastors, Pastor Carl reiterated the
importance of racial dialogue. “When you talk about the bigger scope of things in America, you can't
leave out White people, and the effect that they have had on every single race or people group in our
whole country throughout its history.” Successfully tackling issues related to race and racism requires
White people to participate.
Research Question 2: How Do Narratives and Counternarratives About Race and Racism by Black
Pastors Affect Pastors and their Churches?
Black Christian historian and author Jamar Tisby (2021) believes that Christian churches must be
involved in the fight against racism for three reasons: 1) to address the past, 2) to align with Christian
values, and 3) to continue providing a powerful framework for racial justice movements. White authors
such as Christian Smith, Professor of Sociology and Director of the Center for the Study of Religion and
Society at the University of Notre Dame, acknowledge the critical role that Black Christians and the Black
church played in the Civil Rights Movement, and other social justice movements throughout this
country’s history. My study shares the storie s of Black pastors as they navigate their churches, whether
predominantly Black, predominantly White, or Multiracial, as well as other church-related settings.
Based on individual or group relationships with clerical peers, and experiences shepherding their own
congregations, these pastors reveal stories about what Black pastors encounter, what they think, and
how they react to various scenarios, and conversations about race and racism. Their comments reflect
conversations with Black and White pastors that can help to further inform or reshape existing
narratives by amplifying the voices of Black pastors, and providing additional information and insights
that may have been previously hidden.
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There was a range of Black pastor responses regarding white resistance to racial dialogue. Pastor
Janice said, “[Y]ou want to help people heal. We want to advance the cause and not go in and do
damage.” Pastor Carl agreed. “I’m not trying to make everybody who's non -Black, or who hears me feel
like I'm attacking them like they're the racist.” On the other hand, Pastor Eric, a Black pastor who is
known in White Christian circles, thought differently:
[White people] won't come and be a part of [my] church…. [T]he challenge they face is being in
the predominantly Black community…. [T]hey don't feel they can socially connect…so they don't
come in large numbers. I don't have a [DEI] program because I think it would be a waste of time.
While these Black pastors may invite the opportunity to engage in racial dialogue, not all agree that DEI
initiatives will positively impact diversity in their churches.
The Role of the Pastor in Facilitating Racial Dialogue
Different perspectives regarding the role of pastors and the church in facilitating dialogue about
race and racism surfaced in the interviews of Black pastors. All pastors talked about the church’s
commitment or resistance to racial dialogue, and actual or possible reasons for it. All acknowledged the
need to facilitate racial dialogue, but there were different views about how to accomplish it. All
mentioned that they used biblical text as a foundation for speaking about race and racism from the
pulpit, although there were mixed responses about how biblical text was used (e.g., as it arose in the
course of any given message, as a predetermined response to a specific racial event or crisis, or due to
an expectation that the pastor talk about these issues based on the historical legacy of the church).
Black Pastor Responses Regarding the Role of the Pastor in Facilitating Racial Dialogue
Pastor Andrew believes pastors have a responsibility to enable racial dialogue.
The church is supposed to be a safe haven…inviting various communities in to discuss anything….
So I believe that responsible pastors would address [race and racism] verbally, and do whatever
they can to stand against it in practice, in available resources, in programs, in a number of causes.
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Pastor Andrew’s point of view suggests that racial dialogue is not just about oral communication, it a lso
means providing support in the form of relevant resources, and programs.
Pastor Carl agrees that pastors have a role to play in facilitating racial dialogue. “I think my
responsibility is to not ignore it. My responsibility is to engage it. Being Black in America, I had these
experiences, so I do also get to bring those to the table. Pastor Carl’s view incorporates his lived
experience as an important part of racial dialogue.
Pastor Dan suggested that pastoral support might not be present in every church. “It depends
on the pastor’s personality, style, and giftings as to how much, or even if they would raise the topic or
discuss or facilitate the topic of race and racism in their church at all.” In those cases, pastoral leadership
might not pursue racial dialogue, especially if they don’t consider it their responsibility.
White Pastors’ Responses Regarding the Pastor’s Role in Facilitating Racial Dialogue
White pastors also think they have a role to play in facilitating racial dialogue. Pastor Tim
emphasized this notion. “I think pastors play a very big part in this, and I would put the onus on White
pastors as advocates, friends, and learners. We have to lead the way. We have to model a way of
learning and engagement….” White pastors should consider ways to provide leadership in this area.
Throughout this study, pastors have discussed both the spiritual and the practical aspects of
facilitating racial dialogue in the church. Pastor James put it this way.
I think there are two sides of this for me as a pastor. The one side is, it's my job as a pastor to
help people …catch the vision…[and it’s my job] to help implement the vision for what God's
kingdom is about. And God's kingdom is about a large, diverse family of every kindred, tribe,
nation, language, and tongue. And it's not just in the future – it's here and now!
Data findings corroborate the fact that Black pastors desire racial dialogue, and the resources to support
it. White pastors want such dialogue, as well, but experience more discomfort engaging in it.
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Research Question 3: How Does Racial Dialogue Impact DEI Initiatives in Churches and Beyond?
The churches involved in this study do have programs and initiatives that address DEI, but not in
the way such programs and staff positions exist in corporate America, and pastors did not use a great
deal of DEI terminology. These churches have programs that could fall under the label of DEI, but they
do not have DEI staff dedicated to leading such initiatives. Typically these efforts are led by the pastor or
someone on the pastoral or lay leadership team – or even in the laity. In one case, these matters were
assigned to the church board. There were typically leaders designated to handle DEI-related groups such
as women, and generational groups (youth, young adults, seniors). However, there were no groups
dedicated to race and/or ethnicity. In a few cases, the Black or White church housed separate Hispanic
or Asian congregations, with varying degrees of interaction.
Otherwise named DEI initiatives arose organically (i.e., sprang up out of the pastor’s unique
personal background or the church’s historical legacy), or were intentional (e.g., actions taken to correct
inequities regarding access to training and physical resources). In the former case, for example, Pastor
Paul was one of two White pastors with personal backgrounds of being raised or educated in
predominantly Black environments. He does not see the diversity of his church as the result of an
intentional DEI initiative. Rather, DEI happens because of his unique perspectives and personal network
based on who he is. As he explained, it happened “organically.”
So I would say that they [DEI initiatives] exist in our church. I don't use the term DEI… but they
exist in our church organically. They're not something that we had to create a DEI task force
with… it just kind of happened organically through leadership…. There were no minorities on
staff or on…the Church Board. I organically brought that in.… I didn't come in [saying] “I'm about
to change this White institution…it just happened.
How the pastor models diversity is one key to achieving it in church congregations. Research on
“undiscussables”, which “…exist because they help people avoid short -term conflicts, threats, and
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embarrassment” (Toegel & Ba rsoux, 2002, p. 37), demonstrates that the leader enabling employee voice
(or in this case, racial dialogue), is an important factor in having followers feel that they can
communicate openly and honestly (Lencioni, 2002; Toegel & Barsoux, 2019).
When Pastor Larry expressed the outcomes regarding DEI, it was evident that he was
comfortable talking about race and racism, which he credited to his multi-racial family and unique
upbringing in the missionary field with his parents – where they were always in the minority.
In the other case, Pastor Carl described a small, but important difference pointed out to him by
his 8-year-old when they began serving at a new church that simply called for making sure the Spanish-
speaking congregation had the same cushioned chairs in their auditorium that the White congregation
had in theirs (not the outdoor plastic chairs they had been using).
The Role of Pastors in Facilitating Racial Dialogue and DEI Efforts
During the interviews, each pastor was first asked to define the following terms in order to
ascertain participant understandings of DEI related terminology, and to compare respondent definitions
of these terms: diversity, equity, inclusion, racism, and systemic racism. Although there was variety in
how pastors expressed themselves regarding these terms, the data indicate consistency in how all
pastors defined these terms.
DEI Efforts in The Church
Pastors in this study did not usually refer to their programs as DEI, or use DEI terms to describe
initiatives that would typically fall into this category. This may be a consequence of the lack of formal
DEI professionals, programs, and resources in these church settings, or resistance to using the terms
during a time when there is much criticism about DEI (Chronicle of Higher Education, 2023). Here are
examples of pastor responses from one Black pastor, and one White pastor regarding initiatives in their
churches that could be considered DEI. Pastor James, who leads a predominantly White church, talked
about his church’ s journey to being intentional about DEI.
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I would say when I first became a pastor at our church, our church was predominantly White,
and in a relatively affluent area, and there were not really any intentional efforts for diversity
and inclusion. Probably over the last 10 to 15 years we've become quite intentional, and
encouraging, and finding ways to increase our diversity and inclusion across the board.
Pastor Phillip, who leads a predominantly Black church, talked about multiple DEI-related efforts his
congregation has engaged in over the years, and how the 2020 pandemic sparked one of them.
[W]e have a variety of partnerships, and they transcend race, they transcend religion.
[N]ow that I'm thinking about it… COVID -19. We were a vaccination site because we realized
that, unfortunately during the peak of the pandemic, most of the vaccination sites were in very
wealthy neighborhoods, and so health equity was a primary concern…. So we partnered with a
few medical facilities and we became a vaccination site,...and we saw a lot of not only Black
people, but a lot of… people coming to get vaccinated from a variety of different ethnicities,
nationalities, and also demographics, and economic backgrounds.
It is worth noting that although he did not formally call them DEI initiatives in his church setting,

Pastor Phillip named multiple initiatives that fall in the realm of DEI. These included external

partnerships with community and other partners, and a college student internship (in this

case, for a student of color).

Summary
The interview data tell compelling stories about if, how, and when racial dialogue occurs in the
churches represented in this study. The data further reveal how Black pastors and their congregations
are impacted by racial dialogue and racial silence, and their experiences navigating issues related to race
and racism in and outside of the church.
The Black churches represented in this study were largely non-denominational (five of seven),
meaning that non-denominational pastors have oversight from their own church boards, and do not
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report to an external church oversight body. Comments about this circumstance from Black pastors
included that the non-denominational church board plays a role similar to denominational church
oversight bodies in whether the pastor addresses a topic such as race and/or racism from the pulpit, or
at all.
Additionally, the data explored how DEI initiatives are regarded in these church settings, and
their absence or presence in these church organizations. Pastors also discussed possible supports, and
resources that may be helpful to them in promoting racial dialogue in their churches.
My research questions explored these issues and revealed a number of challenges, as well as
opportunities. In Chapter Five, I discuss the findings, present recommendations arising from the study,
address limitations and delimitations of the study, and discuss implications for future research.

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Chapter Five: Recommendations
Engaging in racial dialogue is necessary for building relationships and developing strategies to
address systemic racism and enhance DEI (SHRM, 2020). In this chapter, I discuss the study findings
presented in Chapter Four, and provide recommendations to help facilitate racial dialogue among and
between Black pastors and White pastors, their congregations, and the communities beyond.
A majority of White and Black people in the United States identify as Christian (Public Religion
Research Institute, 2020). A Gallup U.S. poll found that 69% of respondents identified as Christian, and
almost 50% of North Americans attend church regularly (Jones, 2021). However, the 100 Largest
Churches survey (2021) indicated that most churches are composed of one dominant race, and White
pastors typically reported minimal diversity in their memberships (Lifeway Research, 2021).
Discussion of Findings
Frames are mental models that enable individuals to view problems from multiple perspectives
(Bolman & Deal, 2017). Creativity and an ability to look at problems through different lenses improve
problem solving (Bolman & Deal, 2017).
The tenets of CRT discussed in Chapter One provide a framework for interrogating systems. CRT
posits that racism is not just individual actions, but the result of discriminatory policies and systems that
negatively impact marginalized groups (Morgan, 2022). The CRT frame guides us in asking how racism
reveals itself in policies and practices (George, 2021). Using this frame, my study centered the voices of
Black pastors regarding the role of Christian churches in the United States to facilitate discussion about
race and racism, and diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts.
As Ladson-Billings (2018) summarized, CRT questions the status quo by:
• viewing racism as pervasive;
• encouraging an examination of interest convergence, or the need to align change with the
interests of those in power;
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• naming race as a social construct, and challenging the notion of race as a valid construct that
produces valid outcomes;
• acknowledging intersectionality, and recognizing that individuals with multiple marginalized
identities are further disadvantaged; and
• centering marginalized voices so that counternarratives are heard, and hidden narratives are
revealed (Solórzano & Yosso, 2002).
These essential elements of CRT combine to point the way to an acknowledgement of the full truth
about race and racism in this country, while also incorporating strategies for preparing the road to
action.
I interviewed seven Black pastors who described their experiences, and shared their
perspectives about race and racism, and DEI efforts in their churches. I conducted six additional
interviews with White pastors to explore what different contexts and points of view exist in churches
regarding these issues. Combined, these 13 interviews provided insights into the phenomena of racial
dialogue and racial silence in predominantly Black, and predominantly White churches, and provided
rich, detailed accounts that led to the findings discussed below.
Black Pastors are Not Monolithic
A continuum of thought among Black pastors spans the spectrum from racial silence to racial
dialogue. Black pastors’ attitudes and reactions to issues concerning race and racism are shaped in part
by where they live. In addition, Black pastors have and observe in other Black pastors varied reactions
when they engage in racial dialogue in predominantly White environments.
Black pastors agree that biblical text guides them on when to speak about race and racism from
the pulpit, but they have different approaches. Black pastors also emphasized that racial dialogue
prompted by other motivators is necessary (e.g., a traumatic racial event in the city, region, or country).
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Black pastors expressed frustration with White clergy's inaction and racial silence, whether in
their immediate circles or on a broader organizational or societal level. Some Black pastors experienced
feelings that may border on or tip over into burnout.
Racial Dialogue and Racial Silence Coexist
Christian churches in the United States have the potential to improve racial and ethnic relations
(Driscoll & Jenkins, 2019). Just as executive leaders agree that racial dialogue is needed in their
organizations (Hecht, 2020), pastors in this study said it should exist in some form in their churches. How
leaders – in this case, pastors – communicate and model change is a key element in the success of such
efforts (Schein, 2017).
White executives said they are uncomfortable talking about race and racism because they do
not know how to start or are afraid of saying the wrong thing (Hecht, 2020). Four of six White pastors
conceded that they had some discomfort discussing race and racism. It is notable that the two White
pastors who said they were comfortable engaging in racial dialogue had backgrounds rooted in a lived
experience in Black communities, and no Black Pastors said they were uncomfortable talking about race
and racism. White pastors more often revealed they were reluctant to talk about race and racism from
the pulpit, especially if there was congregational resistance to these subjects, and one encountered such
resistance when talking to other White pastors.
The Black congregations represented in this study were typically described as more receptive to
messages about race and racism from the pulpit than predominantly White congregations, although
there was some congregational support for it in both groups. Two White pastors and one Black pastor
stated they have lost White members due to speaking about race and racism from the pulpit or were
told by some congregants that they did not like that message.
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Black pastors find solace in talking to one another about race and racism. However, one Black
pastor refrains from engaging in conversations that spiral into anger. Another Black pastor was surprised
when he encountered a Black pastor who held views similar to those of conservative White pastors.
A White pastor was encouraged to find that among the White pastors he talks to, most care
about these issues. However, when Black pastors described talking to White pastors, they often
expressed that White pastors were unable or unwilling to connect with them on this topic. One Black
pastor was quite skeptical that discussing race and racism will result in any substantive change. Other
Black pastors represented in this study shared a willingness to engage in racial dialogue with White
pastors, and urged them to be more proactive in this area.
Approaches to Racial Dialogue Differ
Black and White pastors in this study said when they talk about race and racism from the pulpit,
it is grounded in scripture. They did not always use the same approach when using scripture as the
impetus for racial dialogue. Sometimes the message was planned, and other times it was allowed to
come up organically as scripture dictated. Different opinions about what approach should be used
showed up across and within racial groups.
Pastors Believe They Should Facilitate Racial Dialogue, but Question How
Six of seven Black pastors, and three of six White pastors in this study specifically affirmed that
they should have a role in facilitating racial dialogue. White pastors more often had concerns about
what that role should be. One Black pastor said that pastors must be educated to be effective in this
role. The impetus for racial dialogue was described as either external (an outside event or crisis) or
cultural (a holiday or celebration). Two Black pastors who led churches with historical legacies of racial
justice activism and advocacy did not relegate racial dialogue to a particular approach or time.
According to all of the pastors in this study (Black and White), church oversight bodies hold
varying degrees of influence on whether there is racial dialogue in their churches. Some oversight bodies
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were described as very supportive, some as hands-off, and others as historically resistant. Among those
oversight bodies that were considered supportive, some were described as performative – well
meaning, but without corresponding action.
Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Initiatives Exist Only Informally
One way to reflect an organization’s diversity, and demonstrate inclusion is through the visual
images displayed on its website. Of the seven predominantly Black churches represented in this study,
one had images of Black and White congregants prominently displayed on the church website’s home
page, and one had no diverse images on any of its pages. The remaining five predominantly Black
churches did not have diverse images on their home pages, but had some diversity sprinkled on their
sites, although often diverse photos required multiple clicks to find them. Among the six churches led by
White pastors, one displayed no diverse images on its website, while others did so to varying degrees.
All thirteen pastors in this study understood the DEI terms discussed during our interviews
(diversity, equity, inclusion, racism, systemic racism). None routinely use these terms in reference to
their church programs and initiatives that could be labeled as “DEI”. For all church websites
(predominantly Black, predominantly White, and multiracial), there were no specific references to DEI or
prominent usage of DEI-terminology. Two historically Black church websites included references to
“social justice”, and one specifically declared their stance against racism. One of th ese websites had
extensive references to race and racism, and provided access to related resources made available
through links to the denomination’s site.
All pastors (Black and White) gave examples of DEI-type initiatives that focused on gender and
race in recruiting and promotion at leadership and staff levels. It appears that although activities that
can be labeled as DEI exist in the churches of all participating pastors, “DEI” does not operate as a
formally established department in the way that it does in other organizational settings.
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Support Needed for Racial Dialogue and DEI-Type Efforts Varies
When asked what type of support they would need to regularly facilitate racial dialogue and
DEI-type efforts, pastors named the following (listed below in no particular order):
● denominational leadership support
● financial support in the form of budget and staffing
● psychological support such as wellness initiatives
● training and education for staff and leadership
● small group discussions for congregants and external participants
● focus groups for learning and education
● book clubs and film discussions on relevant topics
It may not be helpful to inculcate standard DEI terminology and processes into church programs.
An effort to do so may encounter resistance in light of the current criticism of and pushback against DEI,
and confusion about what it stands for (Chronicle of Higher Education, 2023; Tisby, 2022). Arguably,
every Christian church’s commitment to concepts that can be c alled “DEI” is supported by biblical
teaching, which says that “God shows no partiality” ( New King James Version Bible, 1982, Acts 10:34). In
other words, God does not favor any one group over another. Scripture demonstrates God’s view of
diversity as inherent in the church – to be embraced in this life, and expected in the next. All of the
pastors in this study shared these biblical views about diversity among Christians.
A Pew research study revealed that Black people have grown more pessimistic since George
Floyd’s murder that progress will be made regarding race relations in the United States (Cox & Edwards,
2022). The Pew study also found a significant gap between the optimism of Black people and White
people in this country about the prospects for improved race relations. The Black pastor who issued the
heartfelt call to action in Chapter One pointed out that White institutions in the United States, including
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the church, have apologized to Black people and sought racial reconciliation after race-related tragedies
in this country, but that no sustained action has followed (Ulmer, 2020b).
The racial reconciliation approach may account for why no formal church DEI programs are in
place in any of the churches studied. It follows that if churches treat everyone equitably based on the
foundational values of the Christian faith, and individuals treat one another as God wants them to,
formal DEI programs are not needed. However, most Christian churches in this country have not lived up
to these values regarding race and racism (Emerson & Smith, 2019; Tisby, 2021, 2022).
In a national study of pastors of multiracial churches, Oyakawa (2019) identified two
frameworks for racial dialogue in multiracial churches. Racial reconciliation emphasizes “…shared faith
and building interpersonal relationships across race” (p. 456). This frame focuses on individual behavior,
where churches avoid potentially divisive subjects, and seek to engage in practices that preserve unity.
Oyakawa found that racial reconciliation frameworks that focus solely on unity suppress racial dialogue,
and discourage discussion about differences. The second framework Oyakawa discussed was racial
justice, where discussion of political and racial issues are encouraged in order to promote racial equity.
The racial justice frame focuses on addressing the structural reasons for inequality.
Tisby (2021) more recently offered a framework for discussing race and racism. His ARC

(Awareness, Relationships, and Commitment) model encourages a focus on awareness about historical

contexts, relationships with diverse stakeholders, and a commitment to enacting change. He outlines

the actions organizations may take in each phase.

A different framework offered for racial dialogue is the BRAVE framework for organizations
(Ruggs & Avery, 2020). The BRAVE framework’s tenets, ordered mnemonically, follow:
1. Build: Create a safe space where people feel free to talk. Psychological safety is necessary
for candid dialogue to occur.
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2. Respect: Remember that these are sensitive topics, but also know that people must be
encouraged to move beyond superficial talk.
3. Acknowledge: Grant that it is uncomfortable to talk about historical truths that reveal how
White dominance has created and sustained racism in this country.
4. Validate: Affirm the testimonials of Black people and other marginalized groups who have
experienced discrimination, and accept that racism exists, and is real.
5. Emphasize: Underscore the need to move from talk to action by establishing goals, and
utilizing data to drive racial equity.
Each framework (racial reconciliation, racial justice, BRAVE, and ARC) provides a structure
designed to help leaders and participants approach, engage in, and sustain actions designed to address
race and racism. The racial reconciliation framework may not be the best approach if racial dialogue is
the goal; a racial justice framework is better suited for that purpose. The BRAVE framework was
designed for use by any organization, and the ARC model – although it can be applied in any setting –
was specifically developed with the Christian church in mind.
Racial Dialogue and Racial Justice in Churches
I have described several existing frameworks that provide guidelines for racial dialogue. Below I
describe a model that emerged from this study for pursuing racial dialogue and racial justice in churches.
This framework stems from an undistorted Biblical Point Of View (POV) – as opposed to one that is
distorted, or “...misrepresented or changed so much as to create a wrong impression or alter the
meaning...“ (Merriam Webster Thesaurus, 20123). This undistorted Biblical POV is embedded in
Christian Values (beliefs) and Racial Justice (action), which serve as boundaries for Learning (training and
education), Lamenting (making room for emotional responses), and Listening (making room for Black
narratives and racial dialogue). These components individually and collectively serve to elevate (Lift) the
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church toward needed culture change (Shift) as new understandings, information, and perspectives
transform historically biased church policies and practices. Figure 4 displays this model.
Figure 4
The 4Ls: A Model for Promoting Racial Dialogue and Pursuing Racial Justice in Churches

Black pastors in this study emphasized that they want to move beyond racial dialogue to real
and sustainable change in the church. Organizational change requires action that will transform an
organization’s culture so it is more accepting of, and willing t o engage in racial dialogue, and to change
discriminatory policies and practices (SHRM, 2020). The 4Ls Model shown in Figure 4 provides a
framework for moving from racial silence to racial dialogue to action. The 4Ls map to my theoretical
framework as shown in Figure 5.
Figure 5.
The 4Ls Model Mapped to the Study’s Theoretical Framework

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Some might argue that presenting a framework for racial dialogue that aligns with the Bible is
problematic because the misuse of bible scripture is what has built and maintained individual and
systemic racism in this country (Brandt, 2015; Smith, 2019; Tisby, 2021, 2022). Such historical research
has described how the Bible was misused to support and maintain slavery, and evolved into unfair
systems that still advantage White people, and disadvantage Black people. Black and White pastors in
this study agree that undistorted biblical truths clearly define Christian values, and these values reject
discrimination based on race, ethnicity, and class. Why then should a biblical point of view be trusted
now?
I submit that an undistorted biblical point of view, the Christian values that emanate from them,
and proactive strategies designed to achieve racial justice, can empower the church to move beyond
individual acts of repentance (or racial reconciliation alone) to collective action (Christian values plus
racial justice). Pastors can model and take the lead in enabling their congregations to grow (Learn),
acknowledge racial trauma and attend to racial healing (Lament), and center the stories of Black pastors
and congregants (Listen). Any of these actions will move the congregation forward (Lift), with the
ultimate goal being organizational transformation (Shift).
The challenges associated with languishing efforts to achieve racial equity require discussing
how systemic racism has stymied progress (Helsel, 2017). Providing education about individual bias and
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institutional racism enables people to reduce their own bias, and to interrupt bias in their organizational
policies and practices (Creary et al., 2020; DiAngelo, 2011).
The final recommendations that emerged from the study are embedded in the 4L model shown
in Figure 4, and are explained in further detail below.
Recommendation 1: Learn. Pastors should teach Christian values regarding racial equity, and educate
themselves and their congregations about the historical role of the church regarding racism in this
country
Data show that Black people consistently experience the consequences of discrimination at

higher rates than White people and other people of color. Effects include economic deficits,

underemployment, and inequities in education, health, and housing (Bonilla-Silva, 2006; Robinson,

2010; Umaña-Taylor, 2016; Williams & Wilson, 2019).

Pastors should accurately teach the church’s historical role regarding slavery and racism to their
congregations (Noll, 2009). Black churches have long played a role in advancing racial and social justice
in this country (Driskill & Jenkins, 2019; Edwards, 2008; Jones & Williams, 2017), and there were mixed
views about slavery among abolitionists over time. For example, abolitionist views included returning
freed slaves to Africa, giving them freedom, but not equal standing with White people, and giving them
total freedom (Smith, 2000).
The challenges of languishing racial justice efforts require discussing how racism has created
barriers (Helsel, 2017). Such dialogue is necessary to dismantle systemic racism within organizations
(DiAngelo, 2011). White discomfort in talking about race and racism has been shown to be typical, and it
was also typical for White pastors in this study. If church members embrace diversity as part of their
belief system (Edwards, 2008), providing training for pastors and church leaders to facilitate and engage
their congregations and communities in conversations about race and racism can help them better
engage in racial dialogue.
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Recommendation 2: Lament. Dialogue between Black pastors and White Pastors should include how
their lived experiences with race and racism differ, and include an acknowledgement of the racial
trauma associated with individual and institutional racism
Racial healing is necessary if racial dialogue is to be normalized (Powell et al., 2022). Most White
people do not recognize how they have benefitted from systemic racism, nor do they fully understand
its negative impact on Black people in this country (DiAngelo, 2011; Sue, 2005; Tatum, 1992). Learning
about this country’s role in creating systemic racism may cause White people to experience shame and
guilt (DiAngelo, 2011), and recounting their own experiences with race and racism may cause Black
people to revisit racial trauma (Powell et al., 2022). Whether done privately or publicly, White pastors
need to acknowledge and move past the guilt of the White church’s historical role in supporting slavery
and racism, and Black pastors want to know that White pastors recognize their past and present pain
and suffering. Black pastors were explicit that “kumbaya” moments serve as a source of frustration , and
breed mistrust when there is no movement beyond those moments to implement and sustain real
change (Ulmer, 2020b).
Recommendation 3: Listen. Training and Education should include church leaders and congregations,
and provide opportunities for centering the stories of Black pastors and congregations
Leaders must model inclusion, and listening is a key factor. This is critical to achieving racial
equity in organizations (Dirani et al., 2020). Leaders are being asked to engage in racial dialogue in their
organizations, and to provide opportunities for difficult conversations about race and racism (Acosta &
Ackerman-Barger, 2017). Leaders must think about their actions in the past, present, and future, and
create a vision for change (Casad & Bryant, 2016; Prestia, 2019). They must make room for marginalized
voices (Northouse, 2019), help their followers make sense of things, and provide emotional support to
manage the uncertainty, fear and the distrust that comes with organizational change (Gill, 2002).
Facilitated discussions in small groups, and dialogue between predominantly Black and
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predominantly White churches with personal narratives about how the lived experiences of Black
people in this country differ may lead to greater empathy and understanding (Helsel, 2019). Empathy
enables people to understand the emotions, and experience the feelings of others (Lindsey et al., 2015).
People with more empathy have been shown to demonstrate less prejudice, White people who
demonstrate empathy are more comfortable talking about race and racism, and White comfort
communicating about race and racism contributes to a reduction in systemic racism (Lindsey et al.,
2015).
Recommendation 4: Lift. Dialogue alone is not enough
Although frank dialogue about the impact of bias is a proven way to combat aversive racism
(Sue et al., 2009), according to the Black pastors in this study, racial dialogue alone is insufficient. The
purpose of discussions about race and racism is not to place blame or provoke shame, but to enable
participants to eventually tackle problems, and collaborate on solutions (Barndt, 2011).
Churches can move past talk into action by proactively working to change the culture of their
organizations. Culture change could mean being intentional about diversifying the church’s top
leadership ranks, welcoming diverse voices into the pulpit, and establishing partnerships with the
surrounding community, especially if the church is located in an area that is not reflected in its
membership.
A logic model enables organizations to see how they can accomplish their work utilizing the
underlying theory of change, and assumptions. It presents short-term and long-term outcomes along with the
tasks, programs and activities needed to achieve them (Kellogg Foundation, 2004). Logic models create a
shared understanding of how and why a program is expected to work, and creates a framework for
program evaluation. Logic models are helpful during program design and planning, as well as during the
later stages of implementation and evaluation. Table 11 presents a possible logic model that specifies
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inputs and outputs, and projects short-term, intermediate, and long-term goals toward achieving racial
dialogue in churches.
Table 11
A Logic Model for Achieving Racial Dialogue in Churches
Inputs Outputs
Short-term
outcomes
Intermediate
outcomes
Long-Term
outcomes
Identify resources.

Allocate times and
schedule classes
and small groups.

Provide necessary
resources
(staff/volunteers/
budget).

Institutionalize
communication
about these
activities (e.g.,
regular church
announcements;
website content,
etc.).

Deliver an undistorted,
biblically based series of
teachings on race and
racism in the United States
Using a neutral framework,
incorporate diversity,
equity, and inclusion
aspects into the teaching.

Facilitate monthly small
group discussions that
utilize readings, films, and
guest speakers that amplify
Black voices and lived
experiences.
Pastors and
congregants increase
their knowledge
about what the Bible
says about race and
ethnicity, and the
historical role of the
U.S. church regarding
race and racism.

Pastors and
congregants engage
in discussions that
inform them about,
and drive empathy for
the lived experiences
of Black people in this
country.
Pastors and
congregants become
more willing to engage
in discussions about
race and racism from
the pulpit, and in other
church settings.
Churches use
their knowledge
to eliminate
biased practices
and policies (e.g.,
reducing
microaggressions,
improving
diversity in church
leadership roles).

Pastors and
congregants
become proactive
allies in the fight
for racial justice.
Participation:
Identify
speakers
through
church
networks and
community
outreach.
Invite Black pastors to
traditionally White
pulpits. Invite Black
speakers to share
about their lived
experiences.
White churches
increase their
exposure to Black
narratives and
counternarratives
through storytelling.
White churches
intentionally
interact and
partner with Black
churches.
White
churches
welcome
and center
Black
voices.

Limitations and Delimitations
Limitations of this study include a short period of time in which to collect the data, which
reduced the number of interviews that could be conducted; and non-denominational churches were
overrepresented in the sample. In addition, I was keenly aware that my identity as an African American
93

woman could have influenced how Black and White pastors replied in interviews. Finally, I found there
to be a gap in the literature on DEI efforts in Christian churches in the United States.
Delimitations include that I had to decide the extent to which I would be participatory, keeping
in mind that my theoretical framework allowed for such involvement by the researcher. I also had to
remain cognizant of any bias I might bring to the research as an African American, as a DEI professional,
and as a Christian. My own feelings and thoughts were important to note because they could influence
subsequent insights and interpretations, and served as an initial analysis of data. In making judgements
about what the data were suggesting, I had to be careful not to allow any preconceptions to enter in as I
evaluated the data (Patton, 1987). I was mindful that I needed to guard against my own biases and
positionality influencing my analysis. As Ravich & Carl (2021) pointed out, data do not speak for itself.
Because I was the instrument asking the questions and making sense of the data, my worldview,
identity, biases, positionality and assumptions could creep in. I managed this by noting my own
reactions to interviews and data collection, as well as to data analysis and interpretation. I created
memos to retain new ideas and thoughts, and included some of this purposeful, analytic reflection in my
writing. The evidence should enable me to trust my analyses, to examine if what I am saying is credible,
and to consider how my study helps people make sense of their experiences.
Recommendations for Future Research
Future research on the role of pastors in facilitating racial dialogue in the Church should expand
the sample size to enhance the trustworthiness of the data findings in this study. New research can also
add an additional layer of detail to the data by including the voice of congregants through interviews
and/or surveys.
Further research is needed to explore the role empathy plays as a driver of racial dialogue. Black
pastors in the study described sometimes feeling that White pastors and others did not “ connect” with
them when talking about race and racism, or that their experiences were minimized. Likewise, some
94

White pastors in the study described how they had not thought about the systemic racism Black people
encounter daily until they had a conversation with Black pastors or other Black people in their lives.
Ignorance of the impact of systemic racism on Black people precludes an understanding of – or empathy
for – their lived experiences. Empathy is “a dispositional construct that captures the capacit y to
understand others’ emotions and experiences ” (Lindsey et al., 2015, p. 609). Lindsey et al. also stated
that people with more empathy have been shown to demonstrate less prejudice. White people who
demonstrate empathy are more comfortable talking about race and racism, and White comfort
communicating about race and racism will contribute to a reduction in systemic racism (Lindsey et al.,
2015).
Future research should also give attention to the effects of racism on Black people, known as
“racial traum a”. Racial trauma is defined as “the mental and emotional injury caused by experiences
with racism and racial discrimination” (Mental Health America, para. 1). While this study used the
church as the setting where discussions on race and racism could occur and have impact, future
research could examine the findings from this study as it relates to other settings. Racial trauma is not
exclusive to churchgoers and should be addressed in different contexts.
Racial trauma can result from experiencing discrimination and racism directly, from observing
such events in person or on video, and from discussions about such events (Helms et al., 2010).
Providing opportunities for healing from racial trauma will be important for healthy racial dialogue
(Powell et al., 2022). Mental health professionals acknowledge the harmful effects of racial trauma, and
have responded by developing trauma informed care (TIC). TIC has been suggested as a necessary
component that should be incorporated into any efforts that address racism (Powell et al., 2022). Powell
and associates further named the categories below as principles of an anti-racist, trauma-informed
organization (p. 8):
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● Prioritize marginalized narratives by bearing witness, centering voices, and honoring lived
experience.
● Make a commitment to organizational values, governance, and strategic oversight.
● Act to establish structural reforms, partnerships, and systems change.
● Provide the necessary human resources, staff support, and leadership development.
Future research regarding racial dialogue in the church should give attention to incorporating TIC as
part of the process.
Conclusion
This paper opened by highlighting a heartfelt call to action from a prominent and influential
Black pastor in the wake of the George Floyd murder in 2020 (Ulmer, 2020a). Twenty years earlier,
another prominent pastor launched a series entitled “Race, Relig ion, and Racism” (Price, 1999). This
extended teaching lasted for three years and produced a treatise on racism in the Christian church that
was well ahead of its time. Much of that teaching focused on the Black experience in this country, and
was sparked by the author’s lived experience as a Black man in the United States. Many of the areas
addressed in this earlier teaching are still being discussed by others today, and are yet to be resolved.
In a 2014 Pew Research survey of over 35,000 evangelical Protestants, 60% of those responding
looked to their religion for guidance on deciding what is right and what is wrong. Pastors have the
authority to instruct themselves and their congregations on the biblical mandates associated with racial
equity, to provide training for church leaders and congregants to help them confront and accept church
history, and to explore how their churches can advance racial justice.
By avoiding difficult conversations about race and racism, churches have helped to create the
perception that racial dialogue is divisive, while racial silence in the church has been viewed as a
solution. My study suggests that racial silence in the church is not a solution, but a problem – one that
mars historical truths, muzzles divergent voices, and masks issues that need to be addressed, all while
96

maintaining the status quo. In his letter to clergy written sixty years ago from a Birmingham jail, Martin
Luther King, Jr. expressed his disappointment with the White church and its leadership (Carson, 1998),
and went on to say, “We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the hateful words and
actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence of the good people”.
The Black pastors in this study were clear: “Somebody ought to say something” . They were also
clear that somebody ought to do something. If action is the goal, racial silence perpetuates inaction, and
churches must enable racial dialogue. The recommendations that evolved from this study provide
pastors and their congregations with tools to engage in racial dialogue. My hope is that such dialogue
will help pastors tackle the tough problems associated with individual bias and institutional racism, not
only within their churches, but beyond the church walls in their personal and professional settings, in
their communities, and ultimately, in the nation as a whole.

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Appendix A
Interview Protocol - The Role of the Church In Facilitating Discussion About Race & Racism
Carol Ross-Burnett – Rossier OCL Cohort 18 – 9/23/22
Interview Questions

Introduction: Thank you for agreeing to be interviewed. I am talking to pastors about the
role of the church in facilitating dialogue about race and racism to enhance diversity,
equity and inclusion in this country. I am focusing on predominantly Black and
predominantly White churches. I will start by asking a few questions about your church.
Then I will ask you about your understanding of some of the terms we will be using – not to
quiz you, but to make sure we are using common language as we continue our interview.

Before we begin, let me say that everything said in this meeting is confidential and will not
be shared with anyone other than those involved in developing my research project, who
are also bound by confidentiality. The informed consent document that you received
provides details about confidentiality and other participant rights, which include me asking
your permission to video record our meeting. The video recording is for my use only so that
I may accurately recall and notate our conversation for my use; all names and identifying
information will be removed. May I have your consent to record our meeting?

1. Please describe the demographics of your church:
a. Location (city/state)
b. Race/ethnicity (percentages/estimates okay)

2. How many people attended your church each Sunday (pre-pandemic)?
a. Under 100
b. 101-300
c. 301-500
d. Over 500

3. How many people are on your church's membership roll?
a. Under 100
b. 101-300
c. 301-500
d. Over 500

4. How long have you been pastor of your current church?

a. 1-5 years
b. 6-10 years
114

c. 11-15 years
d. 16-20 years
e. Over 20 years
5. How long have you been in ministry?

a. 1-5 years
b. 6-10 years
c. 10-15 years
d. 16-20 years
e. Over 20 years

6. What is your age?
a. Under 30
b. 31-40
c. 41-50
d. 51-60
e. Over 60

7. Please indicate how you self-identify.
a. White
b. Black or African American
c. American Indian or Alaska Native
d. Asian
e. Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander
f. Multiracial (two or more of the above)

8. Explain your understanding of what is meant by “diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI)”.

a. What is your familiarity with diversity, equity and inclusion efforts in the church?
b. How would you describe diversity, equity, and inclusion in your congregation, based
on these definitions?
c. Describe any DEI efforts that exist in your church.
d. Who leads the DEI efforts in your church?
e. Describe any DEI successes in your church.

IF NONE: What DEI efforts would you like to see in your church, if any?

9. Explain your understanding of what is meant by the term “racism”.
a. Describe how you feel about discussing racism.

115

10. What do you believe is a pastor’s role in facilitating discussions about race and racism
in their church?
11. Explain your understanding of what is meant by the term systemic racism.

12. To what extent do you think your denomination supports or discourages the
expression of your opinions about issues related to race and racism (e.g., public
statements, meetings, formal programs, etc.)
13. Describe any times you have spoken about race and/or racism from your pulpit or in a
church meeting.
a. What prompted your sermon or meeting discussion?
b. How did your congregation react?

IF NONE: Why do you think this subject has not been addressed?
a. Describe any times when you felt that the subject should be addressed, but wasn’t.

14. Describe a time when you talked about race and/or racism with a White pastor.
a. How did you feel?
b. What were your takeaways?

IF NONE: If you could have such a discussion, what would you like to talk about?

15. Describe a time when you talked about race and/or racism with a Black pastor.
a. How did you feel?
b. What were your takeaways?

IF NONE: If you could have such a discussion, what would you like to talk about?

16. Describe a time when you have delivered a sermon about race and/or racism.
a. What prompted you to give that sermon?
b. How did your congregation receive it?

IF NONE: What has prevented you from giving that kind of sermon?
a. If you were to give such a sermon, how do you think your congregation would
receive it?

17. When would you most likely preach a sermon about race and/or racism, if at all?

18. What kind of support would you need to have honest dialogue about race and racism
on a regular basis in your church?
a. How would you feel about doing that?
b. How do you think your congregation would feel?

Abstract (if available)

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University of Southern California Dissertations and Theses

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Asset Metadata

Creator Ross-Burnett, Carol (author)

Core Title Somebody ought to say something: the role of the church in facilitating dialogue about race, racism, and diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts

School Rossier School of Education

Degree Doctor of Education

Degree Program Organizational Change and Leadership (On Line)

Degree Conferral Date 2023-05

Publication Date 07/19/2023

Defense Date 05/17/2023

Publisher University of Southern California (original), University of Southern California. Libraries (digital)

Tag Church,diversity,equity,inclusion,OAI-PMH Harvest,racial dialogue,racial silence,Racism,systemic racism

Format theses (aat)

Language English

Contributor Electronically uploaded by the author (provenance)

Advisor Kim, Esther (committee chair), Little, Sharoni (committee member), Ocampo, Atheneus (committee member)

Creator Email crburnett2020@gmail.com,crossbur@usc.edu

Permanent Link (DOI) https://doi.org/10.25549/usctheses-oUC113281395

Unique identifier UC113281395

Identifier etd-RossBurnet-12107.pdf (filename)

Legacy Identifier etd-RossBurnet-12107

Document Type Dissertation

Format theses (aat)

Rights Ross-Burnett, Carol

Internet Media Type application/pdf

Type texts

Source 20230719-usctheses-batch-1070 (batch), University of Southern California (contributing entity), University of Southern California Dissertations and Theses (collection)

Access Conditions The author retains rights to his/her dissertation, thesis or other graduate work according to U.S. copyright law. Electronic access is being provided by the USC Libraries in agreement with the author, as the original true and official version of the work, but does not grant the reader permission to use the work if the desired use is covered by copyright. It is the author, as rights holder, who must provide use permission if such use is covered by copyright.

Repository Name University of Southern California Digital Library

Repository Location USC Digital Library, University of Southern California, University Park Campus MC 2810, 3434 South Grand Avenue, 2nd Floor, Los Angeles, California 90089-2810, USA

Repository Email cisadmin@lib.usc.edu