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Pathway programs for HBCU students in television & film…

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Content Copyright 2023 Michelle Eunice

PATHWAY PROGRAMS FOR HBCU STUDENTS IN TELEVISION & FILM:
A DEEP DIVE INTO THE SOCIAL, ECONOMIC, AND POLITICAL ASPECTS THAT
FACILITATE OPPORTUNITIES OR BOTTLENECKS THROUGHOUT THE INDUSTRY
(A PODCAST THESIS)

By

Michelle Eunice

A Thesis Presented to the
FACULTY OF THE USC ANNENBERG SCHOOL FOR COMMUNICATION AND
JOURNALISM
UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA
In Partial Fulfillment of the
Requirements for the Degree
MASTER OF ARTS
(PUBLIC RELATIONS & ADVERTISING)

May 2023

ii
Acknowledgements

Thank you to my professors Jennifer Floto, Willa Seidenberg, Brenda Lynch, and
Matthew LeVeque at USC for supporting me and guiding me throughout this thesis project. I
must also give an enormous thank you to Paul Martin, Brett King, Mary Chakerian, and Margo
Lang from Sony Pictures Entertainment who were pivotal in connecting me with and giving me
the flexibility to speak with diversity, equity, and inclusion champions throughout the television
and film industry. Thank you to all of the guests who lent their time, expertise, and voice to this
thesis. A tremendous thank you also goes to my mom and sister, Lillian Eunice and Dr. Selena
Washington, for their constant support and encouragement. I appreciate my St. Louis, Houston,
and Atlanta family, friends, and mentors who have prayed for me and supported me over these
last ten years as I have pursued my dream of increasing diversity, equity, and inclusion in the
entertainment industry. I am eternally grateful for your support. Thank you Jesus for allowing me
to embark on this journey and to help make a positive impact in the entertainment industry.

iii

Table of Contents

Acknowledgements………………………………………………………………………………..ii

List of Tables …………………………………………………………………………………….iv

Abstract…………………………………………………………………………………………....v

Chapter 1: Welcome to Hollywood: The Dearth of Black Representation Off-Screen…………...1

But First, A Spotlight on Nepotism……………………………………………………….3

Why the Need for Historically Black Colleges and University Students (HBCUs) in
Television and Film Careers?..............................................................................................6

Bridging the Gap: Why Pipeline Programs Matter………………………………………13

Chapter 2: The Heroes of Hollywood Podcast

Episode One: Black Behind the Scenes in TV and Film ……..……………………...….17

Episode Two: Inclusion Isn’t Equity: HBCUs in TV & Film ……..………………...….26

Episode Three: Billionaires & Bottlenecks: Entertainment’s Chokehold ….………...…39

Episode Four: Who Knows You is the Name of the Game in TV and Film ….…..……..53

Episode Five: Inclusion Anyone? The Importance of Visibility and Pipeline Programs..67

Episode Six: Hollywood Hope……………………………….…………………………..73

Episode Seven: “Reality” Call to Action: Forging a Path Ahead………………………..82

Conclusion……………………………………………………………………………………….87

Bibliography – Interviews …………………………………………………………….………...93

Bibliography – Text …………………………………………………………….……………….94

iv
List of Tables

Table 1: Top 25 HBCUs & Film Schools with Undergraduate Film/TV Production
and Film/TV Writing Related Majors in the United States……………………….……………..10

Table 2: HBCU Focused TV & Film Above-the-line and Executive Focused Pipeline
Programs…………………………………………………………………………………………15

v
Abstract

Black people consume the most media of any demographic group in the United States,
but very few own or shape the content that is produced. Instead, media is primarily owned by
majority white corporations, where predominantly white, male CEOs and executives determine
what is shown on television and in film. Currently, Black people reap very few financial rewards
from the content they overwhelmingly consume and few have greenlighting power at networks,
production companies, and studios.
But the television and film industry is facing a racial reckoning. Although there have
been some improvements in representation on-screen over the last few years, rich, white, elite
individuals still largely select the talent, broker the deals, and retain the power behind the scenes.
Many of them have money, location, and connections on their side. They make a significant
amount of income so there is no vital incentive to fundamentally change the business... except
for the fact that – America is becoming more diverse. According to the #RepresentationMatters
survey by the National Research Group, 82% of Americans want “diverse stories with characters
that break racial stereotypes” and “66% of Americans believe the media perpetuates negative
stereotypes of Black people” (Alexander, 2020). These critical insights are important for the
entertainment business since Black audiences “consistently drive breakout hits and trending
topics.” It behooves the television and film industry to increase the number of Black people in
every facet of the business in order to better meet the needs of its top consumers.
1
Chapter 1: Welcome to Hollywood: The Dearth of Black Representation Off-Screen

According to Nielsen, Black Americans “consistently drive breakout hits and trending
topics” (Nielsen, 2022). Black consumers in the United States watch the most television of any
demographic group and are among the top three movie going demographics in the country, but
very few of them own or shape the content that is produced in television (TV) and film. TV and
film companies are primarily owned by majority white corporations, where predominantly white,
male CEOs and executives determine what is shown on-screen. As a community, Black people
reap very few financial rewards from the content they heavily influence and consume. Only a
few of them have greenlighting power at networks, production companies, agencies, and studios.
The 2021 UCLA “The Black Executive: A Partial Solution to the Psycho-Social Consequences
of Media Distortion” report, indicates that at the beginning of 2020, there were “no Black CEOs
or members of the senior management team at the major studios. In addition, only 3.9% of major
studio unit heads were Black.” The report also indicates that “film studio CEOs were 91% white
and 82% male, while studio senior management teams were 93% white and 80% male. Studio
unit heads were 86% white and 59% male” (Hunt, 2021).
But the TV and film industry is facing a racial reckoning. The Wrap reports that
Hollywood has appeased the call for more diversity on screen while “it appears as if they have
done so without fundamentally altering the way the industry is structured – without also
diversifying who is making the decisions behind the scenes” (Knolle, 2022). Although there have
been some improvements in representation on-screen over the last ten years, rich, white, elite
individuals still largely select the talent, broker the deals, and retain the power behind the scenes.
They have money, location, and connections on their side. They currently make a significant
amount of income so there is no urgent incentive to fundamentally change the business. . . except
2
for the fact that – America is becoming more diverse (Gest, 2021). The racial reckonings of
2020, after the murders of George Floyd, Ahmad Aubrey, and Breonna Taylor, spurred a
recommitment to equity and racial justice across corporations around the world. According to the
#RepresentationMatters survey by the National Research Group, “66% of Americans believe the
media perpetuates negative stereotypes of Black people” (Alexander, 2020). The study also
reports that 82% of Americans want “diverse stories with characters that break racial
stereotypes.” According to Deadline, “Black executives play a crucial role in leading the effort to
accurately depict African-Americans in Hollywood storytelling” (Deadline, 2022). These critical
insights are important for the entertainment business since Black audiences “have an
unprecedented impact on brands and what consumers watch, purchase, and listen to” (Nielsen,
2021). It behooves the television and film industry to increase the number of Black people in
every facet of the business to better meet the needs of its top consumers.
This podcast thesis examines the social, economic, and political factors that help and
sometimes prevent African American students from Historically Black Colleges and Universities
(HBCUs) from living, working, and thriving in the American television and film ecosystem. The
secondary research explores the current state of the entertainment industry and the educational
institutions that produce top talent for prominent above-the-line and corporate roles. The primary
podcast interviews explore the lived experiences of Black executives and leaders who work
behind the scenes in the TV and film industry and discuss current pathway programs that support
HBCU students who want to pursue executive and above-the-line career paths throughout the
television and film business.

3
But First, A Spotlight on Nepotism

According to Webster’s Dictionary, nepotism is defined as “favoritism (as in appointment
to a job) based on kinship” (Merriam-Webster). The television and film industry is notorious for
nepotism and nearly all of the conversations I have participated in throughout the industry
reinforces this notion as true. The name of the entertainment game is all about family and friend
connections and who you know, and what I have learned as most important, who knows you.
Nepotism is a tricky subject. Initially, I was utterly outraged by the idea of nepotism. I
thought, “it’s completely unfair that some people get privileges over others because of their
proximity to certain people.” But after speaking with several professionals across the television
and film industry, I better understand why nepotism is so rampant in the business. According to
their accounts, there is a lot of money invested, and to be made, when making a television show
or movie. The studio, network, agency, production company, above-the-line and below-the-line
cast and crew all want to make sure that it is done right and that the television show or movie
gets the highest return on investment. As one studio executive put it, the television and film
business is “more business than… show” and each company wants to make sure that its
investment is protected. Therefore, studios, production houses, agencies, networks, and crews
hire who they believe will do the job right which turns into widespread nepotism up and down
the production chain. As another production executive put it, “when you call a plumber, you’re
more likely to go with a reputable source who you know will do the job right and are less likely
to take a chance on a lesser-known source with fewer stars. The film and television business is
the same way.”
The problem is that nepotism shuts out highly qualified people simply because they are
not related to or connected to specific people in power. Many of the relationships are
4
intergenerational and tightly intertwined. A person’s relationship to another has no bearing on
their inherent talent or skill, or the perceived lack thereof in the people who are less connected.
Nepotism can be dangerous, especially early in one’s career, and in a powerful, apprenticeship-
based industry like television and film where the industry is overwhelmingly white. This creates
a breeding ground for blind spots, which then appear in the movies and shows that audiences
consume. These blind spots reinforce stereotypes, good and bad, and have real life implications.
According to the racial justice organization, Color of Change, “too much of the content
Hollywood produces promotes dangerous misunderstandings… [that] has been proven to affect
how Black people are treated by employers, judges, police, politicians, doctors, teachers,
neighbors and society at large” (Color of Change Hollywood, 2022). The National Research
Group survey found that “91% of the Americans surveyed believe that media has the power to
influence society” and 75% of respondents “believe the way Black Americans are portrayed in
the media influences perceptions of them in the real world” (Alexander, 2020). What is shown in
media and film has significant effects on societal perceptions and social behaviors.
Nepotism must be acknowledged and penetrated if there is to be a pursuit of diversity,
equity, and inclusion (DEI) in the industry. Nepotism is the responsibility of the person who
perpetuates it. The onus is on the individual (and institution) to look outside of their immediate
network to bring in qualified talent, make them feel welcome, and give them the resources and
support they need to succeed once they get there. Given that 92% of film executives and 87% of
television executives are white and 90% of agents and executive staff at the top three
entertainment agencies are white, people from historically underrepresented backgrounds will
continue to be at a disadvantage unless those who currently hold the majority of the power hire
people outside of who they are related to and who they immediately know (Coyle, 2021).
5
Additionally, if they have an interest in diversifying the industry, they have to be open to
offering resources, coaching, and mentorship to people from historically underrepresented
backgrounds, allowing them room to make mistakes and get additional chances like they would
with the people they know.

6
Why the Need for Historically Black Colleges and University Students (HBCUs) in
Television and Film Careers?

Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs) are schools of higher learning
with the primary mission of educating African American students in the United States. The
majority of HBCUs were created between 1865-1900, during a time when many colleges
prohibited African American students from attending their institutions. “Up to a century after the
end of slavery, Black students were still not welcome at many public and private higher-
education institutions” (McKinsey & Company, 2022). But, HBCUs filled in the gap, educating
some of America’s most prominent judges and leaders like Thurgood Marshall (Lincoln
University), Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. (Morehouse College), Oprah Winfrey (Tennessee State
University), and the current Vice President of the United States, Kamala Harris (Howard
University).
Historically Black Colleges and Universities produce 80% of African American judges,
50% of African American lawyers, 12.5% of African American Chief Executive Officers, and
40% of African American engineers (Thurgood Marshall College Fund, 2021). HBCUs are hubs
of Black intelligence and excellence. They are undergirded in a commitment to community
building and service. However, until recently, they have largely been untapped for jobs in the
television and film industry.
One entertainment leader said that “ten years ago, they were educating the television and
film industry on what the acronym HBCU meant.” Between 2018-2021, HBCUs saw increased
enrollment in part due to the Black Lives Matter movement resulting in many students seeking a
safe space of learning and excellence and the effects of growing up with prominent African
American leaders such as the first African American president, Barack Obama, and the first
African American Vice President, Kamala Harris. HBCUs were also thrust back into the
7
spotlight in the wake of the killings of Ahmaud Aubrey, Breonna Taylor, and George Floyd in
2020. Many companies, including film and television studios, made financial commitments to
HBCUs, increased their diversity pipeline programs, and enhanced their financial commitments
to racial justice causes and organizations across the United States.
HBCUs can be great testing grounds for what drives culture. Their students and alum are
a tremendous source of ambitious, culturally savvy, professional talent. HBCU students are
“51% more likely to move into a higher-income quintile than graduates of non-HBCUs”
(McKinsey & Company, 2021) Many students and alum fall within the 18 to 45-year-old age
range, a key target demographic for television and film metrics. According to Nielsen, Black
consumers are “the number one ethnic group in watching live television, playing game consoles,
smartphone media consumption, and streaming audio” (Nielsen, 2020). In addition to Black
consumers hailing in the top three demographics of moviegoers in the United States, they are the
second leading ethnic demographic to watch content on streaming platforms, behind Hispanic
viewers (Nielsen, 2022). Investing in the training and recruitment of students from HBCUs can
give a company a competitive advantage as it vies for a larger share of consumer attention across
platforms. Actively recruiting and hiring HBCU talent can help with developing content that
resonates with a rapidly diversifying society.
Although HBCUs have a plethora of positive attributes, many students at these
institutions face significant economic and geographic barriers related to traveling, living, and
working in television and film, which has its largest hub in Los Angeles (LA), California. As one
entertainment leader said, “HBCUs are not located in entertainment’s back yard,” referring to
Los Angeles. Geographically, 89% of all HBCUs are in the southern region of the United States.
California has one HBCU focused on medicine and science located in Los Angeles (Thurgood
8
Marshall College Fund, 2021). Most students (52%) are first-generation college students and
75% qualify for low-income/Pell grants, which do not have to be repaid. About 54% of African
Americans between the ages of 25 and 40 have student loans, compared to 39% of white
Americans in that age group (Lomax, 2020). This is directly connected to the racial wealth gap in
the United States which is the product of intergenerational transfers, lower incomes, and a lack
of financial inclusion. The McKinsey Institute’s Black Economic Mobility (BEM) and the
McKinsey Global Institute (MGI) research indicates that the median Black household has just
one-eighth the wealth of the median White household, with inheritances driving 60% of the
disparity in annual flows (McKinsey & Company, 2022).
These realities present challenges for HBCU students who want to work and contribute to
the entertainment industry. Many of these students do not have the social connections, financial
cushions, or geographic proximities to live, intern, and work in a television and movie capital
like Los Angeles without intentional support and commitment in at least these three areas. Many
HBCU programs have media focused majors (see table 1 below) but as one human resource
leader said, many prestigious “Predominantly White Institutions (PWIs) have resources to offer
the most competitive classes based on rapidly changing technology and skills that are needed for
the film and television business” and many HBCUs do not. As a result, “HBCU students are
already at a disadvantage from the onset because they don’t have the classes or geographic
location to gain experience and opportunities to compete with students at these PWIs.”
The television and film industry is an apprenticeship system with low intern and entry-
level assistant pay. African American, Creative Arts Agency (CAA) television literary agent
Brandon Lawrence says, “you have to subsidize a child who wants to work in entertainment. It
takes a level of socioeconomic sufficiency that isn’t consistently typical for many families of
9
color” (Buckley, 2019). Therefore, it is critical for HBCU students to gain a competitive
education, marketable experiences, and have access to social, economic, and geographic support
throughout their intern and entry-level positions if they are to compete and stay within the
industry.
Additionally, it is imperative that HBCUs have access to state-of-the-art film, television
production, and writing programs if they are to position and increase the number of students who
can compete and thrive in all facets of the television and film industry. Many HBCUs “have
around $20,000 in endowment resources for each student” compared to approximately $80,000
per student at four-year non-HBCUs institutions (McKinsey & Company, 2022). They are
working with considerably fewer resources than their predominantly white counterpart schools.
African American agent Ashley Holland at William Morris Endeavor (WME) talent agency says,
for example, if [entertainment agencies] “really want to see more people of color, [they have to
overinvest at the bottom and have lots of choices for the statistical odds to be on [their] side”
(Buckley, 2019).
In the table below, it is evident that many of the top twenty-five HBCUs do not currently
have dedicated film, television, and script writing programs. This is a stark difference when
compared to the top twenty-five film schools in the United States. This observation presents a
significant opportunity for HBCUs and the top film schools to collaborate to train HBCU
students in cutting edge practices, theories, and technologies to help increase the number of
HBCU students who can compete for above-the-line and even creative executive careers within
the industry. Many of the top film schools including New York University, the University of
Southern California, Chapman University, and the American Film Institute already actively
recruit HBCU students for their graduate film programs. These established partnerships
10
demonstrate the current interest, success, and continued need for more school collaborations and
programs similar to those already in existence. Below is a table showing the top twenty-five film
schools that have writing and television related majors compared to those at the top HBCUs.
Table 1: Top 25 HBCUs & Film Schools with Undergraduate Film/TV Production and
Film/TV Writing Related Majors in the United States

*Excludes mass communication majors

Top 25 Film Schools in the U.S.
School Name Location Film/TV
Production
Film/TV
Writing
Comments
American Film
Institute
CA
New York
University
NY
University of
Southern
California
CA
Chapman
University
CA
CalArts CA
Emerson College MA
Columbia
University
NY
Loyola
Marymount
University
CA
UCLA CA
University of
North Carolina
School of the
Arts
NC
University of
Texas at Austin
TX
Columbia
College Chicago
IL
Wesleyan
University
CT
Florida State
University
FL
DePaul
University
IL
Ithaca College NY
11
Boston
University
MA
Syracuse
University
NY
ArtCenter
College of
Design
CA
SCAD GA
Ringling College FL
Rhode Island
School of Design
RI
Feirstein
Graduate School
of Cinema at
Brooklyn College
NY
Howard
University
(HBCU)
DC Only HBCU in the top 25 film
schools, also listed in the top 25
HBCUs
California State
University
Northridge
CA
Top 25 HBCUs in the U.S.
School Name PWI or
HBCU
Film/TV
Production
Film/TV
Writing
Comments
Spelman College
Howard
University (*top
25 film school)
Only HBCU in top 25 film schools,
only HBCU with a MFA program
Morehouse
Dillard
University
Has one of the more robust TV and
film production programs among
HBCUs
Bowie State
University

Jackson State
University

Hampton
University

Morgan State
Xavier University
of Louisiana

Florida A&M
University

Delaware State
University
General communications program,
focused on broadcast
12
Claflin
University

North Carolina
Agricultural and
Technical State
University
Has a journalism & mass
communication major with a
concentration in mass media
production, but not screenwriting
Fisk University
Tougaloo College Has a mass communication major
and a film & visual culture writing
class – listed under the department
of English
North Carolina
Central
University
Their mass communication
department is one of the newest in
the nation
University of
Maryland,
Eastern Shore

University of the
District of
Columbia
Has a digital media major which
includes film production among a
host of other mass communication
like topics
Norfolk State
University
Has a graphic design major, may be
good for animation
Winston-Salem
State University

Lincoln
University (PA)

Alcorn State
University

Clark Atlanta
University
Has a strong media department but it
is under the Mass Media Arts degree
Elizabeth City
State University

Based on the secondary research, most HBCUs currently have mass communication
majors that focus on TV, radio, and print journalism. The majority of HBCUs do not have a
dedicated film and TV production or film and TV writing program. This puts these students at an
educational disadvantage compared to students at top film schools in the country. This reality
emphasizes the need for comprehensive pipeline programs that give HBCU students the
13
educational, financial, and geographic capital to compete for prominent positions, like executive
track and above-the-line roles in the television and film industry.
14
Bridging the Gap: Why Pipeline Programs Matter

Bridging the gap between the television and film business and HBCUs is critical to
creating a diverse talent pipeline and influencing the images that appear on screen. One
executive mentioned that it often takes an extra and concerted effort to convince other people to
hire a diverse writer, director, producer, or executive from a historically underrepresented
background. It requires a level of pitching and educating the person on the talent for the decision
maker to trust that they can do the job. This creates extra work, which many people do not have
the time for or are not willing to do, especially when they have a short list of creative talent that
they can pick from, directly from the top talent agencies. This reinforces the need for diversity,
equity, and inclusion offices in every facet of the television and film business from studios to
networks, production companies, and agencies. There is a continuous need for investment in
pathway programs that help recruit and retain diverse creative talent and executives. These
dedicated diversity, equity, and inclusion officers and teams are tasked with the job of dedicating
their time and resources to discover new talent and give them opportunities that otherwise may
not be afforded to them in the business. This includes such coveted roles as directing a television
episode or shadowing a director on a feature film.
There are four distinct programs in the film and television industry focused on recruiting
HBCU students to explore above-the-line and executive career pathways in the business. These
programs are (1) HBCU in LA, (2) the UCLA Business of Media, Entertainment, and Sports
Summer Institute, Howard University Initiative, (3) Diverse Representation, and (4) the Howard
Entertainment program.
It is important to note that since its inception, HBCU in LA has served 750 participants
and achieved a 90% intern to full-time-hire conversion rate. The Howard Entertainment program
15
has served 84 students since 2019 but the intern to hire conversion rate is not publicly reported.
The Diverse Representation HBCU Entertainment Immersion program began in the summer of
2022 and serves select HBCU law school students. Six students participated in the one-week
immersion program. UCLA’s Business of Media, Entertainment, and Sports Summer Institute,
Howard University Initiative began in 2017. The total number of people served and the intern to
hire conversion rate for the initiative is not publicly reported. According to the Washington Post,
“no one tracks how many companies are collaborating with HBCUs to find workers at large
companies” (Marcus, 2022). Therefore, some information is limited.
Other notable pipeline programs that focus on HBCUs, but are outside of the scope of
this thesis, are the Disney on the Yard program and DreamWorks LAUNCH: HBCU Fellowship.
The Disney on the Yard program, founded in 2020, offers paid internships, mentoring, and
special recruitment events throughout the year. The internships are primarily focused on front
line roles in food and beverage, retail and sales, operations, recreation, entertainment, and
lodging across Disney’s theme parks and resorts. The DreamWorks LAUNCH: HBCU
Fellowship, established in 2022, is a virtual program, with a stipend, that is focused on educating
and mentoring HBCU animators in the field. Table 2 below specifically shows the four HBCU
pipeline programs that are focused on above-the-line and executive career pathways at a glance.
16
Table 2: HBCU Focused TV & Film Above-the-line and Executive Focused Pipeline
Programs

Program
Components
HBCU in LA
(2016)
UCLA Business
of Media,
Entertainment,
and Sports
Summer
Institute, Howard
University
Initiative (2017)
Diverse
Representation
– HBCU
Entertainment
Immersion
Program
(2018)
The Howard
Entertainment
Program (2019)
Paid internship
placement in the
TV & Film
Industry
Yes Yes No Yes
College Credit No Yes No Yes
Covers Housing
Costs
Yes Unknown Yes (HBCU
covers expense)
Unknown
Covers Flight Costs No Unknown Yes (HBCU
covers expense)
Unknown
Provides
Mentorship &
Expert Discussions
Yes Yes Yes Yes
Professional
Training &
Development
Yes Yes Yes Yes
Total Number of
People Served
750 Unknown 6 84
Number of People
Hired Full Time
OR Connected with
Representation
90%
conversion
rate from
intern to hire
Unknown Unknown Unknown

The secondary research shows that there are areas of opportunity to strengthen
educational and diverse pipeline programming, financial support, and geographic opportunities
for HBCU students who want to work in the TV and film industry. Below is a compilation of
podcast interviews which gives insight into some of the lived experiences of current African
American above-the-line and executive leaders in the industry. Their stories of triumph,
challenges, and lessons learned are captured as the “Heroes of Hollywood” podcast because they
17
are champions, tastemakers, and change makers who are advancing diversity, equity, and
inclusion on and off-screen throughout the industry. Note that some interviews may be modified
slightly for grammar and brevity.

17
Chapter 2: The “Heroes of Hollywood” Podcast

Episode One: Black Behind the Scenes in TV and Film

INTRO MUSIC: “Chill Abstract Intention”

HOST INTRODUCTION: Michelle Eunice
Hi everyone, my name is Michelle Eunice and I'm a Sony Pictures Fellow for Media Impact in
Film, a USC Annenberg Graduate Fellow, and a USC Public Relations and Advertising
Master’s student. Welcome to the “Heroes of Hollywood” podcast where I interview folks who
are working behind the scenes, either as directors, producers, or executives in the TV and film
industry and we talk about their career paths and how they're changing Hollywood and
increasing representation behind the scenes.

Today you'll hear from my guest, Karen Horne, the Senior Vice President of Equity and
Inclusion at Warner Bros. Discovery.

Karen has a twenty-year career pioneering diversity, equity, and inclusion programs, including
those at ABC, NBCUniversal, Nickelodeon, and now at Warner Bros. Discovery. Karen has
championed these programs and she's recognized as a leader. Many of her programs have been
recognized as a “gold star” in the industry so we are very privileged to hear from her and speak
with her today. We’ll talk about how she approaches these programs and why pathway and
pipeline programs are important to increase the representation of diverse voices. So, Karen,
Welcome to the “Heroes of Hollywood” podcast.

18
INTERVIEWEE: Karen Horne
Thank you, Michelle. That’s a very lofty title and I'm honored to be included and to be
considered as a hero in Hollywood. I'm glad to be here.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
Of course! So, Karen, can you tell us about what I like to call the “origin story” of our heroes?
What got you interested in entertainment and the work that you've been doing for the last twenty
years?

INTERVIEWEE: Karen Horne
I've always wanted to work in this industry. I used to say that I don't have a plan B. So, I'm glad
that I've had a career in this industry. I have a sister who is about six years older than me and our
high school had a class where they taught communications, arts, and science training, so
television. She came home from school once and had to look at a television show and determine
how many cameras were being used on that show. It was that moment that really made me
recognize that it's more than just when you’re watching television, there's something happening
behind the scenes. There are actually people who are actually writing those words and shooting
the scenes and it made me look at television in a different way. I also happened to be a news
junkie. I was the kid in college instead of watching old reruns at 11 o’clock at night, [I] would
watch the news every night.

I often say how I wanted to be a journalist going forward. But [I] learned quickly after starting at
ABC in New York, my senior year of college, that you have more influence, and you can really
have more impact on the industry being in the offices that I now sit in.

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HOST: Michelle Eunice
Yes, this is fantastic. Not having a plan B can really fuel your drive to make plan A work. So,
can you [tell us about] your current role as the Senior Vice President of Equity and Inclusion
programs at Warner Bros. Discovery?

INTERVIEWEE: Karen Horne
The role that I have now is a little different than when I started at WarnerMedia two and a half
years ago. My current role is an elevated role where I oversee all of our company’s diversity,
equity, and inclusion efforts for North America, as well as helping to create the global strategy of
our efforts for the company. And that means, in addition to our creative talent development
[pipeline] programs, I now oversee our workforce efforts, our production efforts, [and] our
content efforts. So, anything that the company touches I work with to make sure that we have a
diverse lens on that as well.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
Karen and her teams at Warner Bros. Discovery, as well as her past teams at NBCUniversal,
ABC Disney, and Nickelodeon, have worked above-the-line and below-the-line to help find and
nurture diverse talent in the entertainment industry. Above-the-line consists of directors, writers,
producers, casting directors, and actors. In short, they make the big bucks. Below-the-line crews
actually build the sets, oversee the crews, and make the physical production happen. You can’t
have one without the other. They work together. And it’s critical that they have diversity on both
sides.

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INTERVIEWEE: Karen Horne
You know, we have talent who tell us, and I understand this…, even if you have diverse writers
or directors, you don't want to walk on set and see all white guys on set, which often happens.
So, the work that we do to try to make our productions more diverse is very important as well.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
So, there’s a place for everyone.

INTERVIEWEE: Karen Horne
No matter what you do, and beyond that, there are places in our industry for you. [If you] are an
accountant, or like [you], in marketing or advertising. There are places in our industry for
lawyers. If you look at our creative executives, they're the people who get the opportunity to say
yes or no to what you see on television or in film, and to have people make those decisions
through a diverse lens is really what will change our industry.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
Karen is a pioneer in the industry. Her programs have changed the landscape of primetime
television and Late Night TV.

INTERVIEWEE: Karen Horne
The Late Night Writers Workshop came along when I was on a panel. I’ve had great success in
helping writers get their start in primetime television and scripted television. But there was a
Vanity Fair article that came out about David Letterman's lack of women or diverse writers on
his staff, and, in fact, within the entire Late Night writing world. And so, the moderator said,
“don't, ask her about that, she doesn't work in Late Night.” And he was right, I don't work in Late
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Night, but I thought to myself, “if I had success in primetime programming and scripted, why
can’t I duplicate this in Late Night?” So, I went back to the people who [had] money at NBC at
the time, and I was like, “I want to do this,” and they [were] like, “sure.” And we changed the
landscape of Late Night television through that program.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
Late Night television influences politics and the way we think about others and society. Karen
and her team diversified the voices represented in Late Night Television and brought in new
perspectives that had been absent since the inception of Late Night.

INTERVIEWEE: Karen Horne
We had more women, LGBTQ folks, and diverse men who became not just writers within the
industry, but went on to run shows like [Jimmy] Fallon, and Jimmy Kimmel, and helped create
like a “Carpool Karaoke” on James Corden. Those all writers who came through our writing
program and we know that they've made an impact in our Late Night world, and so the jokes that
we hear and the opinions that are given in Late Night television are not just those from a white
cisgender male.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
Yes, wow, Karen. Something I’m hearing through the work you do, and your personal story, is
this sense of fearlessness. What are the things that stop people from going for opportunities that
you’ve seen either on the creative or the corporate side?

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INTERVIEWEE: Karen Horne
Well first, I would like to tell people to take the term “impostor syndrome” out of their
vernacular and throw it away, especially as Black women, or people of color in general, we have
let that term stop us, right [and] not just the term, but the belief behind it that we really don't
belong. And that's what hundreds of years of systemic racism has had done to us. It has made us
believe that we don't deserve a seat at the table. Well, we do, and if there's not one, we pull up a
chair and make a seat for ourselves, right? And I think that knowing that we are better because of
the diversity in our stories, and what we do, [is] better for our business. Look, I wouldn't do this
if I didn't think it was going to be good for our business because, at the end of the day we are
more business than we are show. And I think oftentimes, the people who make the decisions care
more about the color green than they do if a person is black, brown, yellow, or white. If
something is going to create income for and be huge revenue for our companies, we'll do that.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
Karen has created and overseen a slate of iconic pathway programs over the course of her career.
She’s set the precedent for many other diverse pipeline programs at major studios. Her programs
include:
• ABC Disney’s Diverse Writer, Fellowship, and Directing programs
• Nickelodeon’s Talent Development programs
• NBCUniversal’s Standup Comedians program, The Late Night Writers Workshop (which
she created), the Female Forward Directing program, and the company’s efforts to hire
writers on the verge of their careers
Now she’s at Warner Bros. Discovery expanding her reach and the company’s scope of work.

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INTERVIEWEE: Karen Horne
At Warner Bros. Discovery, I'm really proud of the work we've done here as well. We have
created our music supervision program, which is the only one in the industry that is doing it.
We've partnered with, Black Beauty Roster to make sure that we are training people to be heads
of departments in hair and makeup, and what being a head of a department allows you to do is
hire other people within those departments. We've created a showrunners program at Warner
Bros. Discovery to allow writers of color to have the skills and training that they need to run the
show successfully because running a show is a business, you become the CEO of that show.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
Karen also oversees the Warner Bros. Discovery television workshop and their directing
programs which are iconic in the business. She’s excited about newer initiatives that have rolled
out in the business as well.

INTERVIEWEE: Karen Horne
One of the things I'm super proud of at Warner Bros. Discovery was to do something with our
productions that we call pitch to post, where from the very inception of an idea through the very
completion of it, we [are] making sure that equity and inclusion are part of the everyday life on
that set, in front of and behind the cameras, [and] in the writers’ rooms as well so that we make
sure that people can come to work and bring their authentic self to work and be safe there. And it
also allows our allies, or a white, cisgender male to make a mistake and not get canceled from it.
I think that's important as we evolve hopefully into a society where people can learn and be
inclusive.

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HOST: Michelle Eunice
Can you talk about why, it's so important to have these [pathway] programs at each stage of a
person's career?

INTERVIEWEE: Karen Horne
The importance of making sure that we are supportive of our talent at all levels, particularly the
diverse talent at all levels is so real. The entry-level programs are important because people have
to get into the entertainment industry somehow. I also feel like there's a strong need for our mid-
level writers. But, sometimes it's those mid-level writers, they kind of get stalled and oftentimes,
our creative executives are focusing on things that agents send them and they go back to the well
because they know the well is full of water, and that it will get the job done, right? But what we
have to do is make sure that our teams are knowing that there are other wells out there that they
can go to instead of the same one that they've been fed from for so long.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
The last question I want to ask before I turn it over to you, in case you have any additional things
you’d like to share, is specifically around African American and HBCU students. So much
incredible talent comes out of HBCUs. So, I’m curious, what programs do you know about that
maybe cater to HBCU students, whether it be at Warner Bros. Discovery, non-profit
organizations, or others? Can you speak a little bit about that?

INTERVIEWEE: Karen Horne
Well, all of our programs are open. We have a team in our recruitment division that focuses just
on diverse recruiting. [We] have partnerships with all the HBCUs to make sure we are actively
there for the recruiting times that they're doing [so] that we know them, but they know us, right?
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And that we’re open for business. I think that it’s really important that people know that Warner
Bros. Discovery is a place that they can come and that their opinions, or [that] they themselves,
are valued here at this company.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
Awesome, so, I'll turn the table over to you in case there are any last thoughts or [words of]
encouragement that you would give to a student or a person who's seeking to enter or grow in
this industry.

INTERVIEWEE: Karen Horne
You know one of the things I also forgot to mention that we do [is] something we call Early
Career Boot Camp. Early Career Boot Camp is not for people just out of college, but anyone
who is looking to start their career in our industry. In there, we talk about all the different
components that it takes to run this industry, whether it be creative or an executive, in front of
the camera or behind the camera. And one of the things that makes me so proud about [that] is
because we try to take the sheen off of the veil. We pull the curtains open and say “this is who
we are, you can do this, and here are the opportunities that are afforded to you if you take that
first step. We want you to be a part of our industry, we want your stories, we want your point of
view, we want your input into what we do. And so, I think that if there's ever a time to do this, if
this is something that you desire, if this is something that you're really committed to doing, do it,
go for it!

OUTRO MUSIC: “Chill Abstract Intention”
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Episode Two: Inclusion Isn’t Equity: HBCUs in TV & Film

INTRO MUSIC: “Chill Abstract Intention”

HOST INTRODUCTION: Michelle Eunice
Welcome to episode two of the “Heroes of Hollywood” podcast! I’m your host, Michelle Eunice,
a USC Master’s student in Public Relations and Advertising, a USC Sony Pictures Fellow for
Media Impact in Film, and a USC Annenberg Graduate Fellow. On this podcast, I interview
folks who are working behind the scenes in TV and film – either as directors, producers, or
executives – and we talk about their career paths and how they're changing Hollywood and
increasing representation on camera and behind the scenes.

Today’s guest is Stacy Milner, founder of HBCU in LA. Stacy is a trailblazer when it comes to
designing a diverse pipeline program that squarely places HBCU students into internships in the
heart and film capital of the world, Los Angeles, California. Stacy, can you take a moment to
introduce yourself and your program HBCU in LA?

INTERVIEWEE: Stacy Milner
My name is Stacey Milner. I am the founder of the Entertainment Industry College Outreach
Program (EICOP), and our signature program is HBCU in LA. [I have] thirty plus years in this
business. I began as a Page giving tours behind the scenes at NBC and was smitten. [I was] like,
“I love this industry, I want to be a part of this industry,” and I went on to become the assistant to
the chairman of NBC and Paramount. So, I was operating in two C-Suites of the industry and
loved every minute of it.
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I had no idea that I would end up forming a staffing agency and then starting a nonprofit and
creating impact for the next generation of diverse students, particularly those from HBCUs and
other underrepresented minority institutions to be able to have access into this industry. But, as
they say, I'm a veteran, I've been behind the scenes a long time and [I] love doing the work that
I'm doing.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
That's fantastic, Stacy. I’ve been really excited to speak with you. I’m an HBCU graduate, [a]
proud Spelman Alumna, and the organization that you have and the work that you’re doing
through your signature program are so timely for our culture today. So, thank you for your work.
What inspired you to start the signature program, HBCU in LA? What are some key components
of the program?

INTERVIEWEE: Stacy Milner
Well, you know, when you are inside of what I call, “Hollywood's coveted inner circle,” you can
see its operation. And so, for me, having formed a staffing agency, and we've been staffing
exclusively for the industry for thirty years plus, I had clients coming to me saying, “you know
we can't find diverse talent.” [At the time], I had just written a book called “Leveraging Up, the
Key to Launching Your Entertainment Career.” I went on a book tour to colleges and universities
all across the country, but it wasn't until I ended up on the campus[es] of HBCUs that I realized
that there was such a major disconnect between [the] industry and our institutions. That's when
the light bulb went on for me, and I said “wow!”

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HOST: Michelle Eunice
So, on a plane ride home, Stacy reached out to the industry and invited them to join her on [a]
college tour if they were really serious about connecting with and recruiting diverse candidates.
She proposed an HBCU college tour where she’d work with the industry to bring an educational
career forum to campuses, to bridge the gap.

INTERVIEWEE: Stacy Milner
The industry said, “we love it! When are you going?” So, in 2010, we launched the HBCU
college tour and started bringing those forums [to campuses].

They were so successful that in 2012, President Obama's team reached out to me, and it's not
every day that you get a call from the Executive Office of the President, but I did, and they
wanted to help expand us to more of their stakeholders and help reach more of the HBCUs. And
that's when the seeds were sown. I just decided at that point, we've got to do more right now. The
students we were doing the educational forums with, they couldn't take the internships. And so, I
decided I'm going to invite the White House team to LA. They need to meet the industry. The
industry needs to meet them, and they need to learn more about HBCUs, because back in those
days I was just trying to educate the industry on the acronym. Now it's a very sexy term, HBCU,
but that's the genesis for why HBCU in LA came to be because I knew we had to provide access
and opportunity for students to gain access to these critical internship opportunities.

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HOST: Michelle Eunice
[Let’s take a pause in this story.] At this point, [I’m sure] people are like which HBCU did Stacy
graduate from? I think your story of coming into the industry is very interesting. Can we take a
snippet to talk about your hometown, where you came from, and how you made your way to
LA?

INTERVIEWEE: Stacy Milner
Yes. So, wow! That's a really interesting journey. I lived in Dayton, Ohio, and my aunt used to
come in town on government business often, and I had graduated from high school. I went to a
cooperative high school, so you had to choose a major, and you went to work [for] two weeks,
and then you were in school. So, we were in school year-round. And so, I decided, you know
what? I'm going to go when my aunt comes. I'm going to go back to California with her. I went
and gave notice [to my school] because at the time the high school that I went to, after you
graduate, they'll either offer you a job [or] help pay for your college. So that was my track right,
and then I went and gave notice and said, I'm going to California because my cousin worked at
NBC. And she's like, “I'll help you get an interview to be a Page,” and that’s what happened, and
so I just didn't look back. I'm like, “I'm leaving Ohio. I don't want to do a factory job. I have
aspirations.” I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I knew I wanted to make that change. And so
that's where it all came from. I came out here to gain residency to go to college. I ended up never
going to college, which is crazy, and I had never really heard a lot about HBCUs, even though in
Ohio we have two that are very well known.

So next thing you know, I am in the chairman's office, and I've got four years under my belt, and
I didn't look back. So, I learned in the environment. [That] was my education.
30

HOST: Michelle Eunice
Wow! That’s an amazing story and all of that led to you working for two major studios and
founding your own company, [the Entertainment Industry College Outreach Program (EICOP),
which houses the HBCU in LA program]. So, what are some of the key components of that
program?

INTERVIEWEE: Stacy Milner
So, it is an immersive experience. Students are here anywhere from eight to twelve weeks. They
are provided with housing, they have a speaker series, professional development, career
coaching, [and] mentorship. Every Thursday, we have what we call a speaker series, and that's
where we allow industry leaders, organizations, [and] icons to come and pour into the students.

And then we do tours. We go behind the scenes. We do a peek behind the world of talent
agencies. They do a collaborative film project, so it's [an] internship [and] hands-on work
experience. It's education, training, development, mentorship, and coaching. [Those] are what I
would say [are] the key components of the program.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
What are some of the successes that you've had in your program?

INTERVIEWEE: Stacy Milner
Oh, my goodness! I was just honored at a basketball game and we invited our alum and there
were so many of them there and I’m like, “This is the impact, right?” These students are here,
they are working, they are thriving, they’re working across all different secs of the industry.
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We have a young man who was a part of our 2018/2019 cohort. This young man just signed a
three-year contract [and] is now a literary manager for one of the largest management
organizations in the business.

But we also have students that are now working with major production companies. I can’t
believe it! They are all excelling and achieving their goals. Right now, we have a 90%
conversion rate from intern to hire so these students are not only getting this immersive
experience, but they're also converting these opportunities into jobs because, at the end of the
day, that's what this program is about. It is not a feel-good check-the-box. It is, how do we be
strategic and intentional and make an opportunity available for these students to have their career
goals realized.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
This is a good time to talk about diversity in the industry. HBCU in LA has really been a force in
terms of introducing the industry to the acronym, the students, the people, the schools, and vice
versa. The industry is getting to know these real people, the talent that is at HBCUs. What has
the diversity landscape [in TV and film] been so far either across your career or even in the last
few years?

INTERVIEWEE: Stacy Milner
Well, in the last few years, a lot has changed, right, with everything that has happened with
George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbury, like all of…, you know, there has been such a spotlight shined
on inequity and justice. It just is there. The door is now open. It has been open from time to time,
but oftentimes the industry tends to go back to the status quo. So, I think now this is a time,
particularly in the last couple of years, where we really have an opportunity for a program like
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this, that has been out there prior to all of the changes that have happened… we've already [been
in] place and industry organizations are looking for organizations [like these] because, at the end
of the day, they really want to make the change.

But we need to present to them the solution, and I feel like our vehicle [HBCU in LA] is that
perfect solution because we all know that this industry is an apprenticeship business. You're not
just going to find these people by happens chance. You have to funnel them into the pipeline so
that they become the workforce of tomorrow. And so, I think th[ose] [have] probably been the
biggest changes. They're really embracing it and looking for programs like ours. And I'm just
honored that I get to be a part of the solution because it's an industry that I came out of, and it
comes from a very pure and intentional place for me because someone gave me the opportunity,
and the industry is embracing it. I mean, we have over twenty-five plus industry partners, major
studios, [and] major talent agencies, they're all participating, and you know it's a win-win for
them. We're aggregating the talent we're introducing them to institutions [that] they have not
supported traditionally and so here we are. So, I would say, the biggest change is that they are
embracing it with programs that feed the very goals that they have. And I think that's what we're
helping them to do is to achieve their goals of having a workforce that is reflective of the
communities in which they serve.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
Yes. So, what types of internships do [the] students get or what types of roles do they pursue?

INTERVIEWEE: Stacy Milner
So, a part of what we did early in the days, back when we were doing the college tours back in
2010, was bringing this educational forum to demystify the fact that Hollywood is more than
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writing, acting, directing, and producing, right? A lot of times, that's what they looked at, or you
know they wanted to do something in music and produce this and do that.

In this industry, no one starts out holding the camera, you just don't. You could have produced a
lot of wonderful things, but most of the time you're going to come in some sort of support role.
So, what I did is, I went to the campus and showed them the myriad of job opportunities that
exist across the industry from what's a development executive – they have no idea what that is.
Those are the think tanks, right? You want to know how a show got on the air. Well, there's
somebody sitting in a development team that's hearing pitches all day long and deciding that
we're going to take this, we're going to buy this one, we're going to go into production on this.
So, there's television executives, you know, you don't need to think that you have to have just a
certain degree in order to be in this industry. You just need to have a passion to be in this
industry because it is a hurry up and wait business.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
There is a plethora of jobs in the industry above-the-line, below-the-line, and in corporate roles.
Even architects and engineers work in the television and film industry as they help build theme
parks and sets.

INTERVIEWEE: Stacy Milner
You've got finance, legal, marketing, and now you know everything that happens in the digital
media space.

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HOST: Michelle Eunice
Stacy and her team work to make sure HBCU students know about the range of job opportunities
that are available to them.

INTERVIEWEE: Stacy Milner
I would say, most of the jobs that they want are in the creative space which everybody who
wants to be in Hollywood wants to be in the creative space, but we have to show them that, hey,
it's not about where you land, it's about where you're going. So, we open them up to a lot of
different opportunities across all aspects of the industry.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
Yes, I think that’s key. Those behind the scenes roles are often hidden or behind a veil and it’s
something that we’re not all exposed to [every day]. So, being able to really pull that curtain
back and say there’s a myriad of opportunities and positions that you can have may open the
door for anyone who might be interested in the industry and find a place for them[selves]. Maybe
it just sparked an idea for someone like, “wow, I didn’t even know there was a place for me.”

INTERVIEWEE: Stacy Milner
I tell students anything you can think of in a corporate America job, it resides in the industry
because it is a business that has to be run and all of those components are there. Don't limit
yourself based on well, I don't have the, you know, I have a non-traditional degree. No, you
don't. There are so many people running this business that had degrees unrelated and I always
like to say to students that are English majors: you know story, you know character, all of that is
what goes into what we have to ultimately create. And then all the other engines behind you will
help to get it out there to the market and the masses.
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HOST: Michelle Eunice
So, what are some of the unique challenges that HBCU students face who work in TV and film?

INTERVIEWEE: Stacy Milner
Well, this was a part of the discussion when we brought the White House team to Los Angeles to
meet the industry. We had a big round table discussion and I got a chance to share obviously
what I ha[d] been doing in terms of boots on the ground. [The] President's team talked about the
White House initiative, but we walked away from that meeting realizing there were two major
barriers, geographically, HBCUs are not in our backyard. Secondly, you've got students who can
never afford to live in LA to take an internship. So those are the key barriers, and if we didn't
remove those, the industry would continue with its same cycle, right? Because it means who's
going to be privileged enough to be able to have that opportunity? So, by having programs like
this, presenting it to the industry and them embracing it, now we get to remove those barriers,
and now we have a steady flow of talent that is going to come every year into the industry.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
One of the common misconceptions, at least I had this, I’m curious if students that you come
across have this too… is [that] even those early career jobs, those support jobs, it's going to be
several years until you work your way up to get to that salary or that number where you may feel
comfortable.

INTERVIEWEE: Stacy Milner
Yeah, it truly is. And you know, like I said earlier, this is a hurry up and wait business. This is a
business you have to be passionate about being a part of [it], but once you pay your dues, there
[are] so many rewards, you know? And I like to say, I know we all have to live, but you have to
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sometimes think when you're going for your career goals in a very competitive industry and
space like the entertainment media industry, it's going to take some time before you rise to that
level of that job that allows you to live the lifestyle you want to live.

But it is possible. It’s like I said, it's an apprenticeship business. No one comes in starting at the
top. Everybody comes in, so, you look at talent agencies, right? They are known as the place that
grooms the power players of tomorrow, but they are not making hardly anything. And some of
these folks that get into these agent training programs come from some of the most select schools
across the country but are willing to take that little pay in order to establish the network and
position themselves to be the power players of tomorrow. But yeah, It's just the right of passage
in this industry.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
So, Stacy, how can someone apply for the HBCU in LA program?

INTERVIEWEE: Stacy Milner
Yeah, so who should apply? The program is open to students, undergrad [and] graduate students.
We have law students in the program [and] folks who are going for their doctorate. So as long as
you're enrolled in school, we allow folks up to six months post-graduation to be a part of the
program. But, I will say that freshmen are probably like the smallest cohort of what we have
because most organizations are looking for those, you know, sophomore, rising juniors.
So, it's open to all students, and I would say, you need to get involved in internships, [some sort
of] leadership capacity, [and] volunteer work around whatever it is you say you're passionate
about from the day you start college. Every summer you should be doing something to add to
your resume in order to be marketable and one that can compete in this very competitive space.
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I also want to say that our application traditionally opens in the fall. Right after the summer
program ends, which is usually the third week or so in August, we will open up the application
traditionally in September and we will close it in December, so that's kind of our cycle for
applying for the program.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
So, what's next for HBCU in LA? What can you share with us that’s coming down the pipeline
and any exciting things that you may be working on for students?

INTERVIEWEE: Stacy Milner
So, more students getting opportunities! Last summer we had a hundred plus students between
New York and LA. New York last summer was a pilot test. So, we are officially expanding to
New York. And we are looking to expand to Atlanta. But our goal is to [go] wherever the
industry has hubs. We want to have HBCU students and students of color having access into this
industry. That's what's on the horizon and then obviously converting more and end[ing] up
having a big gala every year where we can honor an HBCU in LA alum that is now head of TV
and development over at whatever XYZ company. It's about just expanding more opportunities
for more students to have an opportunity to participate in this program.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
I can hear your passion and your zeal for working with students. I’m glad that you are
expanding! This is such an incredible opportunity. I want to open the floor in case there are any
other details that you want to share even if it’s to studios, or maybe there’s an executive listening
to this, like, “how can I create more pathways for HBCU students?” I want to hand the floor
over to you to share any last thoughts you may have.
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INTERVIEWEE: Stacy Milner
Thank you so much. I would like to say to the audience in general, we have to create the future
that we want, and sometimes folks get a mantle to carry and it's with a lot of responsibility, and I
am honored to be able to open the door. If I have only affected the students I have affected in the
past six years that now have access into this industry and are working then I've done my job.

But to the industry organizations, and to just this community period that is committed to strategic
and intentional efforts around diversity, equity, and inclusion, you have to come alongside
organizations like this, and we have to be looking out for one another. So, if you are in the space,
and I tell all of my students that are in this program that, “you are providing shoulders for the
next generation to stand upon.” So, if you are in the industry, and you can go to [the] head of
your department, or go to your HR and say, “look, I want to bring a student into my department,”
[then] fight for an opportunity for another student to have access into your organization.

So, let's support one another, come together, and work together because we can achieve this goal
of really creating an industry that is truly diverse, inclusive, and ha[s] equity for all.

OUTRO MUSIC: “Chill Abstract Intention”
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Episode Three: Billionaires & Bottlenecks: Entertainment’s Chokehold

INTRO MUSIC: “Chill Abstract Intention”

HOST INTRODUCTION: Michelle Eunice
Welcome to the “Heroes of Hollywood” podcast! I’m your host, Michelle Eunice, a USC
Master’s student in Public Relations and Advertising, a USC Sony Pictures Fellow for Media
Impact in Film, and a USC Annenberg Graduate Fellow. Today, I’m interviewing another hero
who is advancing diversity, equity, and inclusion behind the scenes in the television and film
industry.

I’m excited to introduce you to Jaia Thomas, an entertainment attorney in Los Angeles and the
founder of Diverse Representation an organization focused on increasing, hiring, and exposing
the number of African American agents, attorneys, managers, and publicists who work in the
sports and entertainment industry. [She’s] spotlighting the people who work behind the scenes.
Jaia, I’m so glad you’re here, welcome to the show!

INTERVIEWEE: Jaia Thomas
Thank you so much for having me.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
Jaia, can you share a little bit of your background for our listeners?

INTERVIEWEE: Jaia Thomas
My name is Jaia Thomas, I am a sports and entertainment lawyer. I've been practicing law for
about fifteen years. [I’m] originally from Cincinnati, Ohio.
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HOST: Michelle Eunice
So, currently, you're not living in Cincinnati anymore.

INTERVIEWEE: Jaia Thomas
[chuckles] I've been gone for a while. I left right after high school. So, it's been several years.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
So, what was your journey to working in the entertainment industry? Can you share a little bit
about that?

INTERVIEWEE: Jaia Thomas
When I graduated from high school, my plan was not to work in sports and entertainment. I
knew I always wanted to be a lawyer but initially, I wanted to be a civil rights lawyer. I went to
college in upstate New York, Colgate University, and then from there I went to law school in
Washington, D.C. at George Washington University Law School. After [finishing] law school I
moved to New York City [to] work there for a few years, and then eventually decided to move to
LA, and that's where I really started my journey in the entertainment space.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
Okay, so take me back to those early LA days, and stepping your foot into entertainment and
sports, what was that like?

INTERVIEWEE: Jaia Thomas
It was a struggle. When I moved to LA, [I] didn't know anybody, so that was very challenging,
moving across the country, not knowing one person. And, so, whenever you move to a new city,
and you don't know anybody that in and of itself is a challenge. [The top three challenges were]:
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1. Learning the city, learning the neighborhoods, learning the pockets, getting a real lay of
the land, and, unlike the East Coast, which is where I spent my entire life, LA is very
spread out and it's a little harder to navigate in my experience. So that was one of the
buckets.

2. Another bucket that was a bit of a struggle for me was when I moved to LA, I was also
kind of like, “where [are] the Black folks?” You know, I [lived] in New York and DC,
which is Chocolate City. Even being from Cincinnati, which is a city that's 48% Black,
this [was] my first time moving to a city where there [weren’t] as many Black folks, and I
didn't know that until I moved there. I think I had just assumed LA is a big city, obviously
there will be Black folks, but it wasn't until I moved that I was like, “oh, no, we're really
not here.” I learned that you know we're only about like 7% of the entire city's population.
That to me was also a struggle, because it became hard to find out where we were, you
know, in other cities we’re everywhere, but in LA it's like well, we're in this
neighborhood, we've got to go over here to see some, and then there to see some, and so
that was a struggle for me to really find where the Black folks were.

3. The third struggle was just the industry and learning how to kind of get my feet in the
industry, you know? I didn't go to a school that was an entertainment focused school and I
didn't have a network in the entertainment industry. I don't have any family who works in
the industry. So, I think, when you don't really have any connection to the industry
sometimes it's a little hard to get your foot in the door. And so that also was a challenge,
just kind of getting my feet wet and meeting the right people.

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Honestly, I hated LA, probably for the first year I was there. I was comparing it to New York,
and it really took a while for me to find my footing. So, it was a struggle definitely.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
Yea, I can definitely relate to that because I’m originally from St. Louis, the Midwest, and I’ve
spent time in Atlanta as well as Houston so coming to LA I thought, “of course there are so many
Black people, it’s a huge city,” and then I looked at the numbers too, like “oh, I get it now!”
[chuckles]. It takes adjusting to and it’s definitely a culture shock if you’ve spent time on the
East Coast, Southeast, or the South.

You talked about the fact that you didn't have a network or connections when you first moved to
LA. So how did you find that?

INTERVIEWEE: Jaia Thomas
I found it in a couple of different ways. When I initially moved to LA, [I] actually decided to go
back to school. It wasn't a full degree program. It was a six-week program at UCLA.

It was like a producing certificate program, and I decided to do that because I felt like I needed to
learn the industry. I kind of knew things from a legal perspective, but I didn't really understand
how the industry worked from a practical perspective like, “how is the TV show made? What is
postproduction?” things like that. So, I decided to do the six-week program at UCLA to just learn
the industry, [to] learn about TV and film.

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HOST: Michelle Eunice
From there, Jaia started building her network by attending happy hours and interacting with
people in class where many of her classmates were already producers and directors in the
industry.

INTERVIEWEE: Jaia Thomas

I started kind of building a network from that class and then going to a lot of events on my own. I
didn't have any friends [at the time] or know anybody. I went to a lot of those by myself, and you
know, when you're at these things by yourself, it kind of forces you to come out of your shell and
talk to people, otherwise you’re kind of standing there alone the entire night. [So], I met a lot of
people that way as well, just these random connections at networking events and happy hours.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
After you found your network, what was your first job like [in the television and film industry]?

INTERVIEWEE: Jaia Thomas
I wanted to get an industry job, and I didn't necessarily feel like it needed to be a legal job. I
didn't go to LA with the intent of “oh, my first job needs to be as a lawyer [at a] law firm.” I
really wanted to learn the industry. When I initially moved, a lot of people were telling [me] like,
“oh, you should be an assistant at an agency, and that'll help get your feet wet and get your foot
in the door.” And then, when they told me that salary, I said, “oh, no, no, no! I have law school
loans like I'm not coming straight out of like undergrad and I can't live off four dollars an hour
like that's just not going to be feasible.” So, a lot of people kind of gave me that advice, and that
just didn't work for where I was in my career and in my life, so I didn't go that route, and I
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actually made a lot of cold calls. This is back when people picked up the phone and [I] tried to
get a job that way.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
Jaia came across Will Smith’s production company, Overbrook, and landed her first position.

INTERVIEWEE: Jaia Thomas
I literally made a cold call [to Will Smith's company Overbook] and that was kind of like my
first step in the door. It was no legal role. It was just kind of a film development type position.
But, I got to learn how the industry works. I got to know who some of the players were, what
different roles were, and what scripts look like. I don't think I had ever even seen a script before.
So that was my first foray into getting a job in this space.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
Wow, and so how did you grow from there?

INTERVIEWEE: Jaia Thomas
[chuckles] It was very much a zig-zag. I was at a little bit of a crossroads because initially, I just
wanted to learn the industry. But the reality was, I still had these law school loans. I had been a
working professional and I had money saved when I moved to LA, but I could only do this kind
of stuff for so long, [I was] just like, “you need to really start trying to make some real money
again” and my parents recommended starting my own practice. They said, “well, you can
continue to make other people wealthy, or you can, you know, kind of build your own empire,
and we think you should just jump out there on your own and start your own practice.” So that's
what I decided to do. My first two clients came from a referral from other lawyers, and from
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there kind of grew. It took a while. I definitely won't say by the next day I was representing
Lebron James. It took years to really build the practice, but like I said, there were a lot of zig-
zags in between then and now, but that was kind of like the crossroads that moved my trajectory
and started my practice. I decided to eventually teach for a while at UCLA and Southwestern
Law School, eventually jumping out and starting Diverse Representation.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
So, this is a perfect segue into Diverse Representation. What inspired you to start it?

INTERVIEWEE: Jaia Thomas
A couple of [things] inspired me. So, I [had] been practicing for several years at this point and
what I was seeing was that a lot of my clients were Black writers, producers, actors, [and]
influencers, but oftentimes I was [the] only black person on their team, I would be their lawyer.
But their agent was white, their manager was white, their publicist was white, and their financial
advisor was white and just seeing all the ways in which we were making all these white agents
and white managers and white publicist wealthy always kind of bothered me in the back of my
mind. I think a lot of this industry is built upon our creativity and our talent, but oftentimes we
don't see the financial rewards of that, white people still do. They're the ones really becoming
wealthy and really making the real money off of our talent and our creativity. So that's something
that always bothered me, just seeing how these white agents were buying houses in Brentwood
off of our talent. In my mind, I’m like “why isn’t this money staying within the Black
community the same way that other communities do a good job of keeping the money in their
communities?”

46
HOST: Michelle Eunice
Jaia wanted to see a change.

INTERVIEWEE: Jaia Thomas

The needle that really shifted everything is when the movie Black Panther came out in 2018.
Everyone in the industry [was] so excited – it's like all this diversity. People were thrilled to see
all of these black faces on screen. That weekend I had a conversation with a girlfriend, another
Black woman, and we said, this is great, happy for them. But we were kind of wondering like,
“well who represents them?” You know this movie is making millions and millions of dollars.
But who's really seeing that outside of the cast? There are a lot of people behind the scenes who
are going to see a lot of those millions of dollars. So that weekend I did some research and found
out that the primary cast had all white agents, all white managers, all white publicists, and all
white lawyers, except Lupita, and I'm like this is absolutely crazy. This is absolutely ridiculous.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
Jaia got busy and found herself making her own website.

INTERVIEWEE: Jaia Thomas
That weekend I decided to start Diverse Representation. I’m not that tech savvy, but [I] figured
out how to create this website that listed all the Black agents, Black attorneys, managers, and
publicists in this industry, so that when Black people are looking to hire Black representation
here's a resource. I never want to hear the excuse again [that] I don't know any Black lawyers.
Oh, no one knows any Black agents, okay? Well, now, there's a free website. What's your excuse
now?

47
My main goal is, I want us to build wealth in our communities, and stop making all these other
communities wealthy off of us. So, that's really what started it and it's been almost four years
now.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
Wow, that's an amazing story [laughing]. We were all thrilled about Black Panther, everyone,
but especially from the African American community. The fact that something so monumental
and impactful can come from something like that just shows the power of culture, [movies], and
television, and even doing a deeper dive and researching how we can be inspired to make the
change we want to see. So that is incredible.

There’s so much here. I’m curious [to know] what successes you have had since launching
Diverse Representation and what are the lessons learned? What was [it] like after you built the
website and provided this resource?

INTERVIEWEE: Jaia Thomas
People were very excited because something like this had never existed for Black Hollywood. I
felt so passionate about getting the information out there and that’s what was so important that I
was like, “let me just get it out there and we’ll see what happens.” But, by and large, it’s been
very well received. So many people have reached out thanking me for it and telling me the ways
they’ve been able to connect with different folks in this space because of it. So many companies
have reached out and become partners of Diverse Representation and I’m so grateful. I have so
many plans for where I see it going in the next five to ten years.

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HOST: Michelle Eunice
Can you tell us a little bit more about the programs you offer and any details that can help paint a
picture for us about how [Diverse Representation] has grown?

INTERVIEWEE: Jaia Thomas
Sure, so we have a lot of different events and programs throughout the year. To kind of give you
a snapshot, we have a couple of executive programs throughout the year.

One thing that I noticed a couple of years after launching Diverse Representation, especially
after 2020 and George Floyd's murder, was that a lot of these studios and networks were coming
up with all these programs to help Black folks in this industry. But, they were primarily geared
towards writers, producers, and directors, and there still weren't any programs geared towards
increasing the number of executives, Black executives, and that's really one of the biggest issues
in this industry. So, we partnered with Color of Change and Lionsgate to launch a Black
entertainment executives pipeline program, and this is a free program, which is still very much in
its infancy where we provide resources for Black professionals who want to become executives.
We have a speaker series, we provide executive coaches, and we provide mentors to really help
them take their careers to the next level.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
Jaia and her team also host a suite of networking events, panel discussions, and educational
forums to help Black talent and representation learn how to connect with each other within the
industry.

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INTERVIEWEE: Jaia Thomas
We just had an event in New York a few weeks ago and [there] was a panel of Black agents,
attorneys, managers, and publicists kind of talking about best ways to get representation [and]
what are some trends in the industry right now. One of the big things that I want to do with
Diverse Representation is also [to] educate people. I think a lot of Black folks in this space,
especially talent, don't even know how to get an agent or how to find the right manager and so
we spent a lot of time doing programming, educating people as well. Before the pandemic, we
had quarterly networking events in LA, where Black agents, attorneys, managers, [and]
publicists could network with Black talent so we could all be in the same room together, and
everyone can get to know each other and hopefully find clients or find representation.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
The Diverse Representation team even started an HBCU program in 2022 to expand its
educational footprint and mission.

INTERVIEWEE: Jaia Thomas
We have a lot of HBCU partnerships. Southern University, that’s one of our HBCU partners,
where we help students who want to get into the industry but don’t know where to start. This
past summer, we launched our first HBCU entertainment immersion program where we brought
students to LA, I think six students, for about a week, and they got to meet different executives
and agents and learn the industry. And so honestly, we kind of do a lot of different things. You
know, [spanning] from programs to events to different initiatives. So yeah, that's kind of a very
high-level overview.

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HOST: Michelle Eunice
You mentioned several [programs] in its early phases. What can the industry do to help support
these pathway programs for HBCU students or for African American students from your
perspective?

INTERVIEWEE: Jaia Thomas
I think two things. I think as you mentioned, that economic piece is really key because LA is not
a cheap city and when we had the program this past summer, Southern University they covered
the students’ flights and hotels and we took care of everything else, primarily the programming
piece of it. But I think if the school may not have the resources to cover a lot of flights and hotels
and expenses like that, I think some of these companies should think about doing that because it
is very expensive for a student, and really any student, to try to do a summer internship in
California. Like, that would not have ever even crossed my mind. So, I think finding a way to
offset those types of costs is really important. And I think that would be extremely helpful.

And I would also like to see a lot of companies do [a] better job of thinking outside the box. I
think after 2020 and George Floyd, I saw a lot of these companies coming up with HBCU
programming, and after a while, they all started to kind of look the same. You know, a lot of like
the panels started to look the same. And so, I think it's important for companies to start thinking
outside the box, do something different. There are still a lot of different holes that need to be
filled, that still aren't being addressed, and I think a lot of these companies need to think about
those holes that need to be addressed as opposed to just kind of copying what everyone else is
doing. So, that's what I would recommend.

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HOST: Michelle Eunice
Thank you. We’re going to wrap up here, but I’m curious to hear your thoughts: are there any
myths that you would like to bust when people come into this industry, whether they are African
American or HBCU students, who are looking at these behind the scenes roles? Just something
you would like to share with them as they think about entering into the industry.

INTERVIEWEE: Jaia Thomas
One of the common misconceptions is [that] if you work hard, that’s enough. I think sometimes
people coming into this industry and think, “well if I work hard, and I really learn the industry,
that’ll be enough.” Unlike other industries, that’s not true. One thing that differentiates the
entertainment industry is that so much of it is about who you know. And I didn’t know that
coming into this space, how important relationships are. So many of the opportunities that I’ve
had and so many opportunities I’ve seen my colleagues get are because of people they know,
people like them, they have great relationships, and a great network. I can’t stress the importance
of that. People who want to get in this space, definitely learn the industry, learn how it works, but
spend as much time building relationships because that can take you just as far, if not further.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
Well, Jaia, this has been a great conversation. You’ve shared so much. I know that the people
listening to this podcast, whether they are from the industry, colleges, or career switchers will
gain so much insight from [this]. Can you share where people can find you if they want to learn
more about Diverse Representation and any of your partnerships if they may be interested in
partnering with you?

52
INTERVIEWEE: Jaia Thomas
Definitely, so you can find Diverse Representation online at www.DiverseRepresentation.com. I
would recommend [you] signing up for our newsletter that shares information, resources, events,
and programs. You can also follow us on Instagram @DiverseRepresentation and [on] LinkedIn
at Diverse Representation. The best way to find me is on LinkedIn as well at Jaia Thomas.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
Awesome, thank you so much. I’ve enjoyed this. Thank you for sharing your time today.

INTERVIEWEE: Jaia Thomas
Thank you for having me.

OUTRO MUSIC: “Chill Abstract Intention”

53
Episode Four: Who Knows You is the Name of the Game in TV and Film

INTRO MUSIC: “Chill Abstract Intention”

HOST INTRODUCTION: Michelle Eunice
Welcome to the “Heroes of Hollywood” podcast! I’m your host, Michelle Eunice, a USC
Master’s student in Public Relations and Advertising, a USC Sony Pictures Fellow for Media
Impact in Film, and a USC Annenberg Graduate Fellow. Today I am featuring another
phenomenal leader in the TV and film industry who is pushing the bounds of diversity, equity,
and inclusion in TV and film on and off-screen.

Meet Paige Simpson, a graduate of Spelman College. Fun fact, Spelman College is also my alma
mater. I didn’t know Paige went there before I coordinated this interview but it doesn’t surprise
me that a Spelman Alumna is doing amazing things! Paige is the current Vice President of TV
Development at 21 Laps Entertainment, the production company [that] created Stranger Things,
The Adam Project, and Night at the Museum among many others. Paige, thank you for being on
the podcast today.

INTERVIEWEE: Paige Simpson
Hi, thanks for having me.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
Of course! Paige, can you share your name, your title, and a little bit about what you do in your
current role?

54
INTERVIEWEE: Paige Simpson
I’m Paige Simpson, I’m Vice President of TV at 21 Laps. I am a development executive so that
means that I read scripts, I take meetings with creatives, I read a lot of Intellectual Property (IP),
books, magazines, listen to podcasts, and try to figure out if there is a way to adapt that source
material into television.

Right now, 21 Laps has an overall deal at Netflix, which means that all of our projects on the TV
side go through Netflix. So, I am catering everything that I'm looking for through that lens of like
I have one buyer, whereas other development executives can sell to other places, I can only sell
to one place.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
Got it. Thank you for that breakdown. I actually didn’t know what a development executive was
until I started graduate school. So, I'm curious, how did you get started in this business? Where
did your interest spark?

INTERVIEWEE: Paige Simpson
I've always been interested in meeting new people and hearing their stories. So, from an early
age, I always wanted to be around people and I always wanted to help people. The way I thought
that I wanted to do that was through medicine. Ah, and health care.

I majored in biology, pre-med at Spelman [College]. But before that, I was always going to
science and medical camps and just giving my all to the sciences and I happened to be really
good at it.

55
So, I think it was really hard for me when I decided to switch, because I had always envisioned
my life being a doctor, and that switch came about by shadowing female physicians of color in
Atlanta and in the emergency room and seeing people die. So that was really hard for me. No one
really prepared me for the emotional response that I was going to be dealing with and the mental
drain that I would experience. I was like, “I don’t think I want to do this for the rest of my life.”
It was just a lot of death.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
So, Paige started looking elsewhere at Spelman and thinking about what made her happy and
when she felt joy.

INTERVIEWEE: Paige Simpson
I remember acting as a kid and my mom and my grandma taking me on set and just traveling all
around and meeting new people and hearing these stories. I realize it's completely different as an
adult. I realized that I didn't want to act. But, I had an opportunity to intern at a casting agency. I
was like, well if I can't act the only other job that I know around acting is casting because “I'm
always in these rooms and I'm trying to figure out why did they pick me, what's happening, so
maybe I can like reverse engineer this.”

HOST: Michelle Eunice
So how did you get your job at the casting agency?

INTERVIEWEE: Paige Simpson
So, I reached out to Michelle Adams, who was working with Tracy “Twinkie” Bird at the time.
They were working on Being Mary Jane for BET and I just like Facebook messaged [Tracy] like
56
“Hi, I'm a recent graduate of Spelman, I'm willing to intern for free, please let me come in your
office and help.” And she was like, “yeah, call the office.” So, I called her and now we're best
friends, so she can't [get rid of] me. But she tells everybody that I was a stalker because I did find
her on Facebook [laughs].

HOST: Michelle Eunice
So, what were those early days like working for Tracy “Twinkie” Bird and Michelle Adams?

INTERVIEWEE: Paige Simpson
I worked with her and Tracy “Twinkie” Bird on Being Mary Jane. And then we did this untitled
Diggy Simmons project and then we did Fruitvale Station and with Fruitvale Station is when I
met Nina Yang, Forrest Whitaker, Ryan Coogler, and Michael B. Jordan. At that time, I was just
enamored by Nina Yang. I was like, “what is happening in this room? Everyone’s listening to
her, she’s giving advice on story and characters and throwing out terms that I’ve heard before,
but just not in the context of movie making. So, I was like, “I know there’s a director, there [are]
actors, what does Nina do?”

So, I pulled her to the side and asked her. She told me she was an executive producer. I asked her
what that was, and she explained it to me, and then I said, “okay, I want to do that job,” and I
was like, “so what classes do I take? Who do I need to talk to? What school do I go to?” And
she's like, “oh, that's so cute. There [are] not really any classes. No real like path. It's just you do
it,” and I was like, “well, what does that exactly mean? Just do it?”

And so, she gave me some pointers of like “you're going to have to humble yourself. You're
going to probably start from the ground up,” which means an assistant. And knowing you, she's
57
like, “you're very headstrong, you have a college degree, it's going to be a road,” and I was like,
“I'm going to just pass that road. I'm not going to have to be an assistant. That's crazy.” [She
said], “good for you if you don't have to.” And so, I took her advice, and I started from the
ground up.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
So, what was your first job, after speaking with Nina?

INTERVIEWEE: Paige Simpson
I got a job working for Viola Davis as a nanny, a party planner, all the things and kind of worked
with her for about two years, and learned a little bit of the background and backside of the
industry. [I] was on set with her and traveled with her and then went from Viola to working as an
executive assistant to Amy Israel at Showtime in Original Programming, where we worked on
The Affair, Masters of Sex, Billions, and a few other projects. And so, from there I went to Will
Packer [and] managed his TV department and worked on Ambitions for [the] Oprah Winfrey
Network (OWN) and Bigger for BET+. Then, [I] left there and went to run Rachel Brosnahan's
production company and she had a first look deal at Amazon. So, that was really cool for me to
have experience working with a specific studio and in a streaming platform that was global [and]
really large in scale. And then, after working for Rachel, I went over to 21 Laps where I am
today.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
That's quite a story – the fact that you went from biology, pre-med to figuring out your true
passion, humbling yourself, and even having the wisdom to pull someone aside to ask questions,
58
that’s incredible. Sometimes, people feel like they have to know everything, especially as
interns.

INTERVIEWEE: Paige Simpson
Yeah, people ask all the time, “what do you do? How do you do it?” I don't know, like I read, I
have an opinion, and I speak my opinion sometimes when I feel like it's warranted or additive.
But it's like you really need to just be in it in order [to learn], and that's kind of the biggest thing
that I think we're struggling with as people of color, and women, is just like getting the
opportunity to learn the thing, right?

HOST: Michelle Eunice
Yeah. So, I do want to just take a minute because you mentioned executive producer for
example. How would you kind of define that for someone who might not be familiar with what
an executive producer is or does?

INTERVIEWEE: Paige Simpson
You know, one of my mentors, Denise Davis, she said this, and I'm going to like butcher what
she said [chuckles], but it's basically like a person who puts the puzzle together, right? There are
so many pieces to this puzzle called TV or film and an executive producer is a person who is like
“you do this job well, I'm going to put you here. You do this well, I'm going to put you here, and
I'm going to make sure everybody works together for the common good of making this puzzle
beautiful” like “this piece fits here, this one doesn’t so let me move this one here,” so I think it's
a person who can handle a lot of responsibility and a lot of personalities and know people's
strengths and really lean into those and then know people's weaknesses and make sure that you
have people in place that can like cater to those.
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HOST: Michelle Eunice
Ok, awesome. Thanks for that! Throughout your journey, you've done so much. How would you
characterize your career journey so far?

INTERVIEWEE: Paige Simpson
I think that I'm having fun. I'm enjoying what I do. And I'm always learning.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
What are some of the highlights or spotlights throughout your career? Some transformative
moments for you, whether you’ve learned something, or you had the most fun, or you really
overcame a challenge and it made what you do rewarding? Do you have any of those that come
to mind for you?

INTERVIEWEE: Paige Simpson
I think the first time I sold a project was amazing, right? But I'll go back further. The first time
that I was on set for a TV series by myself as a supervising producer was for Ambitions for OWN
and I was hoping that Will [Packer] would come join me on set or our head of TV and nobody
came so Will was like “you have this, I trust you, I believe in you,” and I was like "well I don't
know how because I've never done this before and everybody on set is older than me and wiser
than me.” They've been doing this forever, like elders like longer than I've been alive, right?
People will throw that statement out a lot. There were times when I felt like I was being
disrespected, like looking younger or being a woman of color, and so I had to really find my
footing on my own, which was really hard. But I realized again, it's that humility. Luckily, I had
somebody on set, Diane Ashford, who really took me under her wing, and it was like, “this is
what I need you to do, this is what happens,” because the first day that I was on set, I ha[d] like
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five hundred text messages from people of like, “do you approve this wardrobe? What about this
dialogue change?” “I don't know. Am I supposed to approve these things?” And it really is like
trusting in yourself that you know you're going to make some bad decisions or some wrong
decisions, But the world is not going to end, and it will be okay.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
That's great advice. I'm curious [about] when you sold your first project. Can you tell us about
that story?

INTERVIEWEE: Paige Simpson
Yes, okay. I’m going to tell you about the first time I sold a project with Rachel [Brosnahan].

Let's talk about Yearly Departed. So, Rachel is represented by CAA and they sent an article to
me about these two women who have put together this event where they were eulogizing things
that had died in the year previous. So, saying goodbye to things that were really negative in our
world and looking at a brand new world, like, “we said goodbye to those bad things, now we're
saying hello [to new things],” and this was a live event that people bought tickets to and they had
sponsors and comedians come out and they did it at a cemetery. And in my mind, I was like,
“this is a really beautiful comedy special.” I had never produced a comedy special. I don’t think
I’m funny. But I feel like there’s something here and I think it is a really good opportunity for us
to bridge the gap between women, women of color, and comedy, and putting them on this global
platform. I was like, this is something that I feel can really bring a lot of people out to watch and
bond us in a way where we were in COVID trying to figure out what is happening in the world.
So, I called Rachel, and I was like, “hey, I really like this idea. What do you think?” And she's
like, “I like it, too, but like us doing a comedy special?” She said, “I play a comedian on TV, but
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I’m definitely not a comedian. So, I don't know what we're going to do.” So, I started doing
research on companies that were doing live events during COVID. Then, I started reaching out to
friends and family in the industry and wound up talking to Done and Dusted. David and Katie
from Done and Dusted were so amazing that they saw the vision from the very beginning.
Amazon saw the vision because of the team we put together and trusted us that we could do it,
and we did it, and we were able to do it for two years, which was really cool.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
I watched Yearly Departed and loved it! I personally enjoyed it and I know so many more did on
Amazon. So, kudos to you guys! That’s really cool! As we kind of think about this global
platform and putting women and women of color and people of color on this global stage. What
would you say the state of the industry is right now when it comes to diversity and inclusivity for
people of color, black people, and women? Just your thoughts around that?

INTERVIEWEE: Paige Simpson
I think we are doing a better job than we've ever done before, and I think there's so much work to
be done. We’re at a time where people are getting deals and making a whole lot of money, and
producing really good content and I think that the world is starting to see the value add on the
creative side and on the actual rolling up your sleeves and doing the work behind the camera,
instead of only in front of the camera.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
What about for creators in above-the-line roles?

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INTERVIEWEE: Paige Simpson
I think that there is a drought of how many writers, directors, and producers that we have at a
certain level that can execute the way that we need projects executed, and so our pipeline is
really thin, right? So, like you have people that are in overall deals, and you have the Ryan
Cooglers of the world, and then you have the Ava DuVernays, that are really doing it at the
highest level possible.

Then you have people on the TV side like Shonda Rhimes doing it at the highest level possible
and Courtney Kemp and then there's like this midsection that is trying to get there to that highest
level but there's like a little bottlenecking happening. So, I think there is this drought in the
pipeline that we need to continue to fill and give people opportunities because you're not going
to be able to do it until somebody gives you the job to do it, right? So, if you're looking for a
showrunner, most of the networks [and] the studios are like “well, have they show run before?”

You’re like, “no, they haven’t.” So, they're like, “Okay. Well, we want somebody who we can
trust, who, you know, knows how to do the job, which is fair.”

Well, in order for them to have that experience show running, somebody has to be the first
person to hire them to give them that opportunity to show run.

So, I think what's really cool is we're moving into the executive ranks on the studio and network
side where we can have advocates in the room that are like, “hey, I know that person hasn't
gotten that job yet, but they can do it, give them a chance” and people are giving them the
opportunity to show what they can do.
HOST: Michelle Eunice
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Yeah, what's creating the bottleneck, or what have you seen that may be contributing [to the
bottleneck]? You talked about having advocates that can help kind of change what that narrative
has been.

INTERVIEWEE: Paige Simpson
So, I think the bottleneck comes because there weren't advocates in the room for these people.
So, it's not about what you know. We all know this industry is about who you know, but it's also
about who knows you. So, in a room where I'm like making a list of writers that I want for a
specific project, if I bring up a name, and nobody but me knows that person, it's on me to educate
everybody else in the room which takes more work, and it takes more time on my end and on the
other executives in the room, right? So, it's like, oh, you don't know that writer? You should.
Here read their sample, watch their thing.

Now, I'm adding more work to somebody's plate in essence.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
But Paige is beginning to notice a shift in executive rooms.

INTERVIEWEE: Paige Simpson
Now, I think people are doing their own research and these names are now becoming household
names where you're like, “oh, Denise Davis, we should work with her, Nicole Dow, who runs
Marsai Martin’s company, love her, she’s smart, like that's a writer she trusts, let's work with
her.” So, all of these things are starting to become second nature to executives. But I think that's
because of the new generation of executives in the room.
HOST: Michelle Eunice
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That makes a lot of sense. We’re both from an HBCU and I think about just the caliber of
students who come from HBCUs. How can the industry help students and newcomers, and this
new generation be ushered in and prepare them for these behind-the-scenes roles where they can
be advocates for top tier talent?

INTERVIEWEE: Paige Simpson
I know that Amazon has a specific program connected to Howard [University] and we had an
intern that was in that program who went to Howard and was working through Amazon and so
he was able to get experience through that.

I think more of that is great, like I think it shouldn't just be Howard. It should be every school
and every network or studio should be doing it. But I also think the earnest is on the schools too
to bring back alumni who are in these positions, who can really talk to what their roles are, what
the jobs are, and what it entails. I know a lot of us who want to go back and have conversations
that when I was in Spelman no one talked to me about any of this and it could have just been
because I was in the medical world and maybe they did have things that I just didn't go to, but I
don't really recall seeing anything that was like, “The CEO of Disney is coming to Spelman to do
a talk” because I think those would be interesting conversations to have. But I don't think we're
having them as often as we should.

I think those are really important to just get people on our campus, right? I feel like once you
step onto a Spelman campus, a Howard campus, you feel this Black excellence at a level where
we can never explain it to them. So, I think once they step on, and then they give us an
opportunity to step into their offices, we can have a really cohesive relationship that can grow.

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HOST: Michelle Eunice
Yes, I definitely can attest to that. And you mentioned the fact that you work within a production
company now, and there are roles and people that you work with [now]. What are some of those
roles [of the] people that you interact with on a day to day [basis]?

INTERVIEWEE: Paige Simpson
I work with writers, directors, and other producers. I work with business affairs and executives
on the network side at Netflix. Ah, marketing, a lot of agents and managers, publishers are really
important. You're like, “hey, that next big book, please send it to me.” Agents and managers,
we’re like, “hey, as soon as that writer becomes available, I want to meet with them, please let's
set a meeting.” And then, when you're on set it's all of the physical production. But while you're
in development, those are the main people that you're in contact with.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
That's great. You mentioned there are a lot of people making a whole lot of money in positions,
and I mean one would ask, what are those positions?

INTERVIEWEE: Paige Simpson
Camera [chuckles], literally anything in the camera department. I feel like audio and sound
editing like when you think about a TV series, there are so many roles that are very important
and I think because we don't see them on the screen, we don't think about [them]. But if we don't
have a visual which comes from [a] camera, then we don't have a product. If we don't have good
sound people will not connect. So, you have to have good audio.

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HOST: Michelle Eunice
Paige also says editing roles are really important.

INTERVIEWEE: Paige Simpson
I think editing is literally like bread and butter for anyone to make or break a film or a TV series.
It's literally the editing of that episode or that film that can make it an Oscar-worthy or a binge-
worthy film, or like this was a miss. Accounting… those are ones that come to mind that are
really fun too.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
Paige didn’t have any last thoughts to share. But the use of her platform, network, and her
willingness to educate people in executive rooms on diverse stories and creators definitely makes
her a Hero of Hollywood, championing diversity, equity, and inclusion throughout the industry.

OUTRO MUSIC: “Chill Abstract Intention”
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Episode Five: Inclusion Anyone? Visibility & Pipeline Programs

INTRO MUSIC: “Chill Abstract Intention”

HOST INTRODUCTION: Michelle Eunice
Hi, I’m Michelle Eunice! Welcome to the “Heroes of Hollywood” podcast. I’m a USC
Master’s student in Public Relations and Advertising, a USC Sony Pictures Fellow for Media
Impact in Film, and a USC Annenberg Graduate Fellow. On this podcast, I interview directors,
executives, and leaders in the TV and film industry who are advancing diversity, equity, and
inclusion on and off-screen. Today, I’m interviewing the phenomenal writer, producer, and
director, Pete Chatmon.

Pete is the director of some powerhouse shows including ABC’s Grey’s Anatomy and Black-ish,
HBO Max’s Insecure and The Flight Attendant, and AppleTV+’s, Mystic Quest. He’s also the
co-executive producer and producing director of Reasonable Doubt for Hulu’s Onyx Collective.
Pete has led a remarkable twenty-year career in the industry. He is not only a director, but he is
also an author, a podcaster, and a professor at New York University (NYU). So, it’s an honor
to have him on the podcast today. Pete, welcome to the show!

INTERVIEWEE: Pete Chatmon
Michelle, thank you for having me. You mentioned twenty years of experience in the industry,
and I don't know how to define it because I've only been doing TV since 2017. I did
independent films, I graduated [from] NYU in ‘99, I went to Sundance with my short film 3D
that starred Kerry Washington. So, working with her on Reasonable Doubt and her next show
UnPrisoned is a twenty-three-year full circle moment.
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HOST: Michelle Eunice
Over the last twenty years, Pete has spent much of his time outside of the formal TV and Film
industry working on his own projects, making indie features, short films, and branded content.
He’s spent years trying to bulldoze his way into the industry to get where he is now.

INTERVIEWEE: Pete Chatmon
It wasn't until I made a short film to really satisfy my own creative passions that I was able to
get into The Sony Pictures Diverse Directors program, The HBO All Access program, The
Disney ABC Directing program, which now includes FX, and all that other stuff, and also the
NBC Universal program.

And you know, those were all diversity programs designed to create some sort of pipeline of
visibility for diverse directors to get into what's a very closed world of working with people
you already know or people who look like you. And so, I'm proud of what I've been able to
accomplish over the last five years thanks to those programs, in the sense of like getting in
there and getting hired and rehired, which is a big thing in TV. You don't want to just get hired
for one and then you never come back. That kind of makes people say, “well, why didn’t they
bring you back?”

HOST: Michelle Eunice
Pete has leveraged his participation in The Sony Diverse Directors, The HBO All Access, and
The Disney ABC Directing programs into a thriving directing career over the last few years.

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INTERVIEWEE: Pete Chatmon
I'm really proud of the career that I've been able to carve out with my team and my work to
hopefully open some more doors for other folks like me, or who have a similar background, or
similar kind of adjacency to the industry that's looking to get in there and tell stories and do
their thing. I think ultimately [it’s getting] to a place where they are not only helping other
people tell their stories but bringing their own unique visions to the table.
HOST: Michelle Eunice
Pete, it’s really interesting that you talked about your career over the last five years and how
things really sparked in 2017. Why do you think the visibility is needed and what do those
programs do for someone who’s been putting in work that changes things for them potentially,
changes the trajectory of their career?
INTERVIEWEE: Pete Chatmon
It’s just the fact that these are very insular fields. People hire the people that they know. That's
a big thing about the programs is that like a lot of times an actor or an editor or an Assistant
Director (AD) will get a shot to direct an episode [of TV] before someone like myself at that
time, who has been doing nothing but directing and trying to break in, and they’re getting those
opportunities because they have the proximity and they have the awareness of the powers that
be to give them a shot.
When you come in to do an episode of TV, there are essentially three stakeholders that have to
say, “we want to hire, Pete.” You've got the creator/showrunner, or someone that’s
representing the show itself, you’ve got the studio, which is like the production company,
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they’ve developed the idea before it had somewhere to call home as a network, and then you've
got the distributor. So, each of those three parties needs to be firmly aligned and in agreement
with you being the director of that show. So, the only way you're going to get in there is if
people are aware of you. They're going to look at a name on a sheet, and if there's no
awareness of that name, no one's going to be like we need to put this person on episode eight
because what they're more interested in going to bat for will be storylines for the season,
episode arcs, all that. So, these programs were the most direct route for folks like myself to get
in front of people who in some cases [weren’t] even checking for what I might have been
doing.
HOST: Michelle Eunice
The programs put diverse creatives, who are pumping out high quality work, front and center
with executives who are choosing the next writers, directors, and showrunners for their shows.
Many of these programs are run by diversity, equity, and inclusion champions and offices who
make it a point to scout top tier talent. They highlight their names in a deliberate way that
might not otherwise happen, or happen as quickly, if they were not a part of these programs.
INTERVIEWEE: Pete Chatmon

There's a certain demographic of folks that were aware of all the things that I ha[d] been doing.
Matter of fact, the first show that I got booked for was Black-ish and I had met Kenya Barris
back in 2002 on my trip to LA with my buddy Dorian when we were looking to raise money
for my film, Premium. So here was somebody who, fifteen years later, was aware of all the
short films, all the indie features, and the hustle, the events, and the branded entertainment
stuff. So, he was like, “oh man, he's in the program, I know this dude's been grinding, I know
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he can do it. We're going to hire you for episode 412 of Black-ish. That’s how it happened.
There are others for whom they have handfuls of people like Kenya in their lives, and so these
programs are helping to hopefully accelerate your relationship building and give you a chance
to get in front of the folks who can hire you.
HOST: Michelle Eunice
That's awesome. Well, as we wrap up, I have a two-part question. The first is just what are
some myths that you would debunk for anyone who wants to be a director? The second is what
do you think that the industry can be doing, or other organizations, to create and strengthen
pathways for more people from diverse backgrounds to enter into the industry as directors?
INTERVIEWEE: Pete Chatmon
I think my answer might be the same for both. I think the myth that I would debunk is that it's
not about knowing where to put a camera, knowing how to block actors, knowing how to come
up with the motivation, adjective, or anything like [that]. Obviously, it is about that, but if you
cannot navigate the politics of the people, you will never get to your shot. You will never get
to that blocking scenario that you thought about for ten hours or you'll also never be able to
have an actor receptive to that adjective. Because if you miss the dynamics of people and how
to manage that, you lose the support of and belief in you from your crew and your cast.
And when I consider your second question and what could people, organizations, etcetera do to
help diverse voices, I think it's keeping it real and giving an answer like I just gave you, you
know what I mean? Because like, you learn how to be an artist and tell your story and use the
tools, but then you graduate and it's like, “well, ok, I'm an artist, I guess [chuckles], but I'm not
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a professional.” And so now, I’ve got to spend three years becoming a professional, right?
Could we sprinkle in a little bit of learning how to be a professional along the way? When
people give you a chat like this, can they tell you these are the pitfalls? These are the things
you’re going to have to think about. If you just get a little bit of that from a lot of places, I feel
like somehow you end up putting together the right suitcase for your journey, and you're not
overpacked with ego and stuff.
HOST: Michelle Eunice
Pete says the information is abundant for anyone who wants to work in this industry.

INTERVIEWEE: Pete Chatmon
For anybody listening, whatever it is that you want to do, like no other time before, the
information is available to you. You can read [and] you can watch. I think about social media
often and there are folks who are already mirroring and presenting their idea of the blueprint to
you, and that's free. So, I just feel like be a sponge. Build a well of people who are familiar
with you as a creative person who adds value to a crew. And it just keeps moving up like that
and it’s a marathon, but it’s a marathon, but it’s a marathon with a search for specificity.
HOST: Michelle Eunice
[A] perfect way to leave. Thanks so much, Pete. I appreciate it.
INTERVIEWEE: Pete Chatmon
Thank you.
OUTRO MUSIC: “Chill Abstract Intention”
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Episode Six: Hollywood Hope

INTRO MUSIC: “Chill Abstract Intention”

HOST INTRODUCTION: Michelle Eunice
Hi, I'm Michelle Eunice and welcome to the “Heroes of Hollywood” podcast. I’m a USC
Master’s student in Public Relations and Advertising, a USC Sony Pictures Fellow for Media
Impact in Film, and a USC Annenberg Graduate Fellow. On this podcast, I interview executives
and leaders in the TV and film industry who are changing the landscape of diversity, equity,
and inclusion on and off screen. Today, I'm so excited because we have a very special guest.
We have Nicole Brown, the President of TriStar Pictures at Sony Pictures Entertainment.

Now, Nicole made history in 2019 as the first Black woman to run a [live-action] film label at
a major studio when she took over the helm of TriStar Pictures. In 2022, Tristar Pictures
released four films including the breakout epic The Woman King. I am honored to share this
podcast episode with you today where we talk a little bit about her career journey and why
representation is important behind the scenes in the TV and film industry. So, it’s my pleasure
to welcome Nicole to the show!

INTERVIEWEE: Nicole Brown
Thank you.
HOST: Michelle Eunice
Of course. Can you share your name, title, and what you do as the President of Tristar
Pictures?
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INTERVIEWEE: Nicole Brown
Nicole Brown, president of Tristar Pictures. My job, as the head of this division, is to find,
build, and oversee bold, fresh, original, director-driven content that can thrive globally and as
wide-release content.
HOST: Michelle Eunice
What would you say you spend most of your day doing as president?
INTERVIEWEE: Nicole Brown
I divide my day into three sections, I would say. The first part is overseeing current content
and that might be visiting a set, sitting in an editing room, reading a script, [or] sitting in a
marketing meeting. It is the quality control and delivering [of] the ideas and opportunities that
we've promised to the studio the way they expected it: on budget, on time, [and] with the
creative vision that we set out to achieve.
The second part of my day is developing new content and that means sitting with writers,
directors, and literary representation talking about manuscripts. It means generating a kernel of
an idea, from anywhere we can find it, and converting that seed into a business opportunity for
Sony Pictures. And that takes a long time and that's a full-time job too. But, I try to divide my
day into both the oversight and the cultivation of new things.
I'd say the third part of my job description is building a team and nurturing that team so that
everyone is thriving [and that] everyone is clear on what they need to do so that we're
maximizing the potential of the company. As I develop the team, I also think that’s a time to
develop myself and push the business model, ideate, think about how to grow this company in
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fresh out-of-the-box ways, and support the industry in fresh out-of-the-box ways. So maybe at
times, that means mentorship, at times that means doing a panel, it's contributing both to my
team and the Hollywood community.
HOST: Michelle Eunice
Wow. Nicole, you've been in this business for a long time. I know you started out in acting,
then you went to Columbia [University], and then you worked as a producer [at a] production
[company]. So, you've seen a lot over the years. I’m wondering, what would you say the
current state of diversity is in the film and TV industry? How have you seen that change over
the course of your career? Where are we today?
INTERVIEWEE: Nicole Brown
It's a really interesting question. In some respects, we are at a wonderful place. That's so
different from when I started. When I started, you know, [there was] one woman at a company,
and maybe you can look real hard and spot one Black person at a company, and even the
mentality of those people who were the “one/other” was… there's only room for one.
Oftentimes, there wasn't a door left open for more people. It was isolating, and I'd say there
was probably a lot of tokenism. The content itself was more focused on one standard and there
wasn't as much diversity even in the content.
I think today there's a different mentality. One token woman, one token person of color is not
good enough. It's not acceptable. The rooms need to reflect the world we live in and I think
that's a beautiful mentality. I think we've grown. I think more and more people are starting to
acknowledge that that's not only the right thing to do but it makes incredible business sense.
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The rooms should look like the audiences we are playing to. So, I think that's good. And I
think you can see that in [the] eclectic, diverse material that's being made.
You're seeing movement in the theatrical film space, you're seeing movement, exceptional
movement in my opinion, in the TV space where there's really a diverse range of
programming, but there's still work to do. There's still that tokenism, there are still pockets
where some people get represented, but not all people get represented. You're still seeing too
many firsts. I am very happy to be the first woman to have my title, but that's way too late. I
don't want that to be the first anymore. I'm so happy for Michelle Yeoh to be the first Asian
woman to win her Oscar, but I don't want that to be a first anymore. Let's just normalize
diversity. Let's normalize multiple points of view, multiple characters, and multiple types of
people who sit in a room and make these really important business decisions that affect,
change, and transform culture.
So, I'm positive about the direction we're going. I'm impatient because I'd like us to move
faster. But I'm hopeful for the future because as I meet with people, I hear these young
filmmakers and these young budding executives who are so curious about the business. They
have a completely different, much more global, [and] much more inclusive mindset. I just can't
wait for them to take over this business.
HOST: Michelle Eunice
Wow, that's so inspiring. I've interviewed a few other folks here in the industry and I've heard
of this new blood, some of the new executives that are having this inclusive mindset.
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You mentioned the industry increasing representation and opening the doors. How do you
think the industry can increase the number of women and Black executives in the industry?
INTERVIEWEE: Nicole Brown
We must constantly be examining the pipeline. Because actually what you look at is there's a
real[ly] diverse pool of interns. Those interns, the kids who work during the summer, it's really
eclectic. There are tons of women, there are tons of people of color, and everybody has bright
eyes and they're energetic. Assistants look good, too. The assistants look diverse [and] seem to
have different types of backgrounds. You walk into offices and these young, colorful people
are welcoming you, asking if you want coffee.
But then something changes. Who gets promoted off of a desk? Looks like, is it a little bit
more male? I don't know, I don't have the stats. Is it a little bit more homogeneous? Fine. But
maybe we're doing ok on that first entry-level. Let's call it a story editor or young executive.
But as you move up the ranks, I don't think we see enough diverse leadership and growth. So,
to me, it's not the entry-level that's our problem. It's somewhere in this moving up the ranks
where perhaps there's still bias that exists.
Perhaps even as females face challenges of choosing a career or their personal life and being
mothers or other things, does it get harder or are they not able to shine? Are there impediments
to people of color who may not have the same backgrounds or financial means to participate in
those social gatherings or community spaces where the opportunities [and] the promotions kind
of happen outside of the lines. We need to look at that. We need to look at that and make sure
that there truly is equal opportunity in this business and that we have a healthy meritocracy in
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moving up the ranks. Because the truth is the business needs the best of the best and if there
are impediments that are not based on merit, we need to remove them and we need to examine
that and make sure that the best people can rise to the top. So, does that answer what can we
do? It's complicated. There's a lot of gray area. I'm not exactly sure.
We need to have heads of companies, people in the C-Suite, people who are watching each
company from a diversity and inclusion standpoint to make sure that the business practices of
the company are healthy, that the goals for promotion are really clear and fair, and yes, the
leaders need to look at themselves and make sure that it's a fair playing field and that not only
is there great diversity at the early ranks but there's rich, powerful diversity at the highest ranks
as well.
HOST: Michelle Eunice
Yes, this has been such a rich conversation and I've appreciated your thoughts on this. Given
what you’ve shared so far in your career up to this point, why should a person consider a career
as an executive in this industry? I hear your passion [chuckles].
INTERVIEWEE: Nicole Brown
There are a lot of great jobs in this world, and if there's any other career that interests a young
person, go take it, because Hollywood is not easy. It's a grind. It's not as shiny as the Oscars.
There's a lot of hard work, long nights, and cold days on set to get to that end result. But if
there's nothing else that makes you want to wake up in the morning and all you want to do is
tell stories and experience content and be a part of building content, then I guess you’ve got to
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work, you’ve got to work in this industry, and you’ve got to come. Because if you love it, it is
an all-encompassing, truly stimulating career.
I love what I do. I love all the people. I love all the creative challenges. I love all of my stories
that I get to sink into and live in and meet crazy characters and understand them on the deepest
level. Then [you] share these stories that you build and you spend all this time with this team
sitting in dark rooms and watching… and then suddenly you get to share it with an audience
and when they receive it and celebrate it and they're moved, they laugh, they cry… that feeling
of finishing a story and for all of your hopes for that story to work on another human is the
greatest feeling in the world. So, I love what I do, and I hope that more people who are truly
passionate about the important things in Hollywood, storytelling, transforming humans by
these narrative experiences, it's a really special privilege. It's hard work, but I forget that it's
work, because it's just a great life.
HOST: Michelle Eunice
Wow. I know I have been inspired by The Woman King, and just I'm curious what The Woman
King meant to you since it was such a huge film in 2022?
INTERVIEWEE: Nicole Brown
Funny, when we started The Woman King, again, I just felt in my belly it was just a story I
wanted to see. It was really simple. There was no “oh, this is so important. Oh, I'm going to
culturally disrupt the system.” It just started from “wow, these characters existed and what if
the general had this secret?” It just started from creativity and from feeding off of truthfully,
Viola's creativity that she was curious about a character and curious about a world and said,
80
“could we build it?” And it was such a privilege to say yes. It was such a privilege to say, “yes,
let me support you, let's build it.”
The funny thing is I didn't even notice all the no’s. There were so many no’s around us and
no’s around them, but I just kept saying, “yes.” And what I realized, when this incredible team
got together and started to create and build, was that they had been starving to be empowered
and tell their story the way they wanted to. It was a gift for me to get to watch and I know that
it was a gift for them to get to sink their teeth into that food that fed them and inspired them.
Then when you're again, doing something you love, the results are incredible. They put their
blood, sweat, and tears into that movie. They put their hearts, they put their souls, they gave it
every ounce that they could. And they worked so hard. They faced a pandemic. They didn't
care. Most of these women had never done action before. They were like, “I'm going to do it,
I'm going to be the best!”
That sisterhood, that competitive spirit, that desire to show their Black excellence was
executed at the highest level and we were received at the highest level. I mean, we're at almost
a $100 million [dollars at the box office] worldwide. We were numbered two and three on Netflix
for several weeks. Home Entertainment is killing it! It's through the roof. So, what the
audiences are telling us is that this hard work was worth it and they wanted it. I always say
success begets success. So, I hope that this success of The Woman King can open up doors for
more people to tell stories that have never been told and to ignore the no’s and keep saying yes.
81
HOST: Michelle Eunice
I love that! Nicole, you are a gift. The work that you do is a gift. So, thank you so much for
being on the podcast today and for sharing your thoughts and expertise. I hope that this inspires
someone in the industry, a young student, or a young executive to go for their dreams.
INTERVIEWEE: Nicole Brown
Me too.
HOST: Michelle Eunice
Thank you.
INTERVIEWEE: Nicole Brown
My pleasure.

OUTRO MUSIC: “Chill Abstract Intention”

82
Episode Seven: “Reality” Call to Action: Forging a Path Ahead

INTRO MUSIC: “Chill Abstract Intention”

HOST INTRODUCTION: Michelle Eunice
Hi, I’m Michelle Eunice and welcome to the “Heroes of Hollywood” podcast! I’m a USC
Master’s student in Public Relations and Advertising, a USC Sony Pictures Fellow for Media
Impact in Film, and a USC Annenberg Graduate Fellow.

I’ve conducted several interviews over the last ten months for my podcast thesis called the
“Heroes of Hollywood.” We’re talking about increasing diversity, equity, and inclusion in these
episodes and exploring different roles behind the scenes in the TV [and film] industry. I’ve
interviewed directors, executives, and community leaders about their career journeys and how
they are diversifying the field.

Today, I’m interviewing two heroes who work at USC’s School of Cinematic Arts (SCA) one of
the top three film schools in the United States. We’ll be talking about why first jobs are so
important for film students and how schools and the industry can help students, especially from
HBCUs and underrepresented backgrounds, forge a successful career path in the industry.

Meet Lisa Fox, the Media, Talent Development Manager at USC’s School of Cinematic Arts.
Lisa has an extensive background in the entertainment industry as an agent and development
executive for cable TV programming. She currently oversees the First Jobs program at USC’s
School of Cinematic Arts.

83
I also have Desa Philadelphia joining us today. She works at the School of Cinematic Arts at
USC and she works closely with HBCUs helping students who are pursuing advanced degrees
here at [SCA].

I’m excited to have this round table discussion today. Lisa and Desa, welcome to the show!

INTERVIEWEE: Desa Philadelphia

Thank you for having us.

HOST: Michelle Eunice
So, Lisa, I’ll start with you. I know that you oversee the First Jobs Program here at USC. Can
you share what the program is and why there’s a need for it?
INTERVIEWEE: Lisa Fox

First Jobs was created by Aaron Kaplan who’s a prolific alumnus of the Marshall School of
Business, actually but he was very involved at SCA as well. He created it about five years ago to
give back, to help recent alumni, one to five years out, get their first jobs in the [TV and film]
industry. I feel very grateful and blessed that he and Dean Daley, who is our fearless leader, and
my fabulous boss Bonnie Chi, [that they] thought it would be a good idea for me to take a stab at
it and I did and now we are staffing over 1,200 alumni at this stage as well as we have 900
employers in the program, tons of promotions have happened, and we have over 1,500 alumni
and those numbers grow every day.

And all we do is staff alumni and [help them get in] their first jobs and beyond. At this stage, it
has grown to second jobs, third jobs, fourth jobs, and more, and we’re about to launch actually
another program that maybe the next time we talk, I can tell you more about.
84
HOST: Michelle Eunice
Right. So, Desa you’re here. We’re both listening to Lisa describe this First Jobs Program. But
it’s my understanding that you both work closely together and that Desa, you work with HBCU
students. Is there a crossover [between] the work that you do with HBCU students and the First
Jobs Program? How is it helping underrepresented voices in any way?
INTERVIEWEE: Desa Philadelphia

Well, it’s not really that I work with HBCU students. What we do is when we are trying to
recruit students to the school, we try to spread the net as wide as possible. We realize that a
shortcut to that talent is through the HBCU system. So, we want them to know that we’re here,
the breadth of the programs that exist, and that we’re interested in attracting talent from
everywhere and that has meant prioritizing our outreach to HBCUs.
HOST: Michelle Eunice
I believe that I read at a point, a few months back in my research, that the First Jobs Program is
one way to get underrepresented voices in front of the right folks who can potentially hire them.
It sounds like the program is of course open to all SCA students. Are there any specific programs
for historically underrepresented students at all or is it more so serving the larger SCA
community?
INTERVIEWEE: Lisa Fox

I think you’re talking about the First Up Program [established by USC alum Prentice Penny] for
historically underrepresented [writers]. The First Jobs program is open to everybody, all SCA
85
majors and minors. But we do get calls often for diverse candidates, everybody is looking for
diversity right now, it’s very important and we give the employers what they’re asking for.
HOST: Michelle Eunice
Can we talk a little about that? From your perspective, being at the school, what is the current
landscape when it comes to diversity, equity, and inclusion and staffing the industry in this way?
How has it changed maybe over the last few years? I know that 2020 was a big moment in the
United States as it relates to racial equity and justice. What have you seen in terms of diversity,
equity, and inclusion in the entertainment industry? What changes are happening?
INTERVIEWEE: Desa Philadelphia

Our council for diversity, equity, and inclusion, and really all [of] our programs were in place
before 2020, even First Jobs, where we are addressing equitable staffing. At the School of
Cinematic Arts, we really understand our mission of being a pipeline to the industry. To have an
equitable workforce in the industry, you have to have equitable recruiting practices at the student
level so that’s always been a priority even before George Floyd. Not that we didn’t have many
“come to Jesus” chats about race and equity after that and even now we continue to have those
discussions because having equitable practices isn’t something you do once and then you move
on, it has to continue to be a part of the culture. But we have always recruited in a way that
prioritized diversity, that prioritized inclusion, and prioritized that in the content that students
make because we know that if the focus on inclusive practices is foundational here, that those
students, when they graduate into the industry, it’s going to be the way [that they] work. So, it’s
that we recognize that as a pipeline to the industry, we have to prioritize diversity, inclusion, and
equitable professional practices so that [it] will become the norm in the professional ranks.
86
INTERVIEWEE: Lisa Fox

Three events that our office did even before 2020, before COVID, were Paramount Screening
Women Behind the Lens, the CAA Diversity Screening, and the CAA Diversity Pitches, and we
do get calls all the time for diversity through First Jobs and we will service whatever the
employer’s needs are to make sure our alumni are serviced as well as our employers to get the
perfect fits for the jobs that are being brought our way.
HOST: Michelle Eunice
Well, thank you both for being here Lisa and Desa. I really appreciate you being here today and
all the work that you’re doing to help students to get their first jobs and to feel welcomed and
connected here at USC.
I want to thank all the business leaders, executives, creative artists, and school administrators
who have lent their voices, their time, and their expertise to this podcast. It’s clear that the
business side and the creative side of the TV and film industry must become more diverse if the
business is to transform toward even greater diversity, equity, and inclusion [overall]. Training,
recruiting, providing financial support to students from HBCUs, and [to] students in the creative
arts is critical to fuel[ing] the industry with creative and executive leadership talent.

OUTRO MUSIC: “Chill Abstract Intention”

87
Conclusion: Recommendations for Public Relations and Advertising Professionals

The secondary research and primary podcast interviews reveal that diverse pipeline programs in
the television and film industry help reduce barriers and transform the content that is seen on
screen.

Over the last twenty years, the TV and film industry has made measurable progress in
diversifying different aspects of the business behind the scenes. The most prominent examples of
diverse pipeline programs are focused on diverse writers, directors, actors, and showrunners.
These programs are housed at major studios like Warner Bros. Discovery, Sony Pictures
Entertainment, NBCUniversal, and The Walt Disney Company.

But, there is a significant lack of diverse pipeline programs that focus on training historically
underrepresented communities to become business leaders and executives in the TV and film
industry, specifically in the roles that directly impact what is seen on screen.

The research indicates that TV and film companies must strongly consider creating and
investing in diverse pipeline programs that focus on the business side of the industry if they
want to see greater diversity behind the scenes, and subsequently on-screen. These business
areas include marketing and publicity, creative development, accounting, business affairs, studio
managers and heads, in addition to talent agent and manager roles.

Dr. Darnell Hunt, dean of Social Sciences and a professor of Sociology and African American
Studies at UCLA, expresses a similar sentiment. He indicates that Hollywood studios have
worked to appease audiences on screen in recent years without fundamentally changing the
business by diversifying the decision makers behind the scenes. He recommends “that the
88
entertainment industry employ the intellect, creativity, and affinity of Black executives to make
meaningful contributions toward both the success and influence of Hollywood, by assuming lead
roles in key functions throughout the content creation and delivery process” (Knolle, 2022).

The call for greater diversity on the business side of TV and film is apparent in the primary
podcast interviews.

• Karen Horne, Senior Vice President of Equity and Inclusion at Warner Bros.
Discovery says to have people, like creative executives, making “decisions through a
diverse lens is really what will change our industry.”
• Jaia Thomas, Entertainment Attorney and Founder of Diverse Representation, states
that “increasing the number of executives, Black executives, [is] really one of the
biggest issues in this industry.”
• Paige Simpson, Vice President of TV Development at 21 Laps Entertainment,
expresses that some bottlenecks occur in the industry when “there aren’t advocates in
the room” who are familiar with the names of the diverse writers and creators.

This is where HBCU students can be a vital resource to help diversify the business side of the
TV and film industry. Black audiences “have an unprecedented impact on brands and what
consumers watch, purchase, and listen to,” they are “the number one ethnic group in watching
live television, playing game consoles, smartphone media consumption, and streaming audio,”
and they “consistently drive breakout hits and trending topics” (Nielsen, 2020, 2021 and 2022).
Many students and alum fall within this demographic, a key target audience for television and
film metrics.
89
HBCU students are 51% more likely to move to a higher income quartile than non-HBCU
students, showing their propensity for upward mobility. HBCU students also demonstrate a
strong commitment to service. These factors make HBCUs a hub for Black intellect, affinity,
advancement, and excellence.

Public relations and advertising professionals can consider the following strategies to help
facilitate diverse pipeline programs and increase the number of HBCU students who pursue
above-the-line and executive track roles in the television and film industry:

1. HBCU alum who work in the public relations and advertising field could form a national
association of HBCU entertainment professionals. The association would promote the
visibility of public relations and advertising professionals in the field, helping them to
expand their networks with peers and colleagues across different sectors of the TV and
film business.

The organization could help facilitate networking events, educational forums, paid
fellowship programming, and mentorship, creating a steady pipeline of HBCU public
relations and advertising talent into the business. The association could consist of local,
regional, and national chapters to recruit members nationwide. A signature feature of the
association could be the inclusion of shadowing opportunities where student members
could work alongside seasoned association members to execute and amplify public
relations and advertising initiatives and campaigns. In her podcast interview, Jaia Thomas
discussed how HBCU programming can often look the same and how the industry can do
a better job of thinking outside of the box. The internal shadowing opportunities would
be a unique strategy for the association, allowing members to network with each other
90
and gain hands-on work experience outside of the exclusive entertainment hubs of Los
Angeles, New York, and Atlanta.
2. Public relations and advertising professionals can help HBCUs create a joint campaign
entitled “Reel Time Business” to garner more paid, business focused fellowships in the
TV and film industry that cover housing and travel expenses for students. Each of the
interviewees, except one, lived at home in the first few years of their careers and it was
vital to help them shoulder the low pay that comes with internships and entry-level jobs
in the first few years of working in the industry. Public relations and advertising
professionals can employ tactics such as college campus visits, student videos, in person
testimonials, executive talking points, and compelling fact sheets to help TV, film, and
HBCU leadership teams discuss the social, political, and economic factors that present
barriers for HBCU students pursuing careers in the TV and film industry. WME agent,
Ashley Holland, says that “if [entertainment agencies] really want to see more people of
color, [they have to overinvest at the bottom and have lots of choices for the statistical
odds to be on [their] side” (Buckley, 2019). Thirty-year entertainment veteran, and
founder of HBCU in LA, Stacy Milner says it is vital for TV and film companies to
“come alongside organizations like [HBCU in LA], because together, “we can achieve
this goal of really creating an industry that is truly diverse, inclusive, and ha[s] equity for
all.”

A strategic, multi-campus, communications campaign led by public relations and
advertising professionals can bring awareness to the issues, facilitate stronger
relationships between the entertainment industry and HBCUs, and increase the diverse
pipeline across all business aspects of the industry.
91

3. Public relations and advertising professionals can help facilitate communications between
the top twenty-five film schools and the top twenty-five HBCUs by hosting a national
competition where film school students and public relations students from HBCUs and
PWIs work together to make and promote an original short film or TV show. The
competition would require each team to consist of members from PWIs and HBCUs to
enter the competition. This collaboration opens the communication pathways between
institutions, stimulates creativity, and removes the geographic barriers between PWI film
schools which are primarily located on the West Coast and HBCUs which are primarily
in the Southeast. The competition would promote diversity, equity, and inclusion in the
industry and allow students to begin networking with creatives and business leaders at the
onset of their careers. Paige Simpson emphasizes the concept of “who knows you” in the
TV and film business. Jaia Thomas says working hard and learning the industry is not
enough to succeed in the industry. She attests that so many opportunities that she and her
colleagues have received are because of their network. She says it’s important to learn the
industry but it’s crucial to “spend as much time building relationships because that can
take you just as far, if not further.” This competition begins forming that network across
institutions while students are still in college. The ability for film students to work with
public relations and advertising students also allows them to hone their professionalism, a
skill that Pete Chatmon says film schools can sprinkle in more with students.

The competition would be judged by TV and film industry leaders which promotes
visibility in the early stages of a student’s career. Public relations and advertising
professionals can amplify the competition through paid advertising in magazines, digital,
92
and radio outlets such as Essence, Seventeen, and People magazines and across Urban
One radio stations. Public relations and advertising professionals can garner earned media
by pitching local and national outlets like the Today Show, Variety, the Tamron Hall
show, and local newscasts. A social media campaign strategy across TikTok and
Instagram can also be used to attract students online. Public relations and advertising
professionals can also draft strategic messaging and flyers for schools to get their buy in,
increase promotion of the competition, and attract participants and judges among their
student and alumni networks.
93
Bibliography – Interviews

Interview with Karen Horne on November 11, 2022
Interview with Stacy Milner on November 15, 2022
Interview with Jaia Thomas on November 16, 2022
Interview with Paige Simpson on November 21, 2022
Interview with Pete Chatmon on November 28, 2022
Interview with Lisa Fox on March 9, 2023
Interview with Desa Philadelphia on March 9, 2023
Interview with Nicole Brown on March 16, 2023
Interviews with some entertainment personnel were kept confidential to maintain privacy. Only
their positions/titles are indicated in the thesis, allowing them to speak candidly about the subject
matter.

94
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McKinsey & Company. (2021, August 6). HBCUs propel grads up the American Economic
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aduate

Abstract (if available)

Abstract Full title: Pathway programs for HBCU students in television & film: a deep dive into the social, economic, and political aspects that facilitate opportunities or bottlenecks throughout the industry (a podcast thesis). Abstract: Black people consume the most media of any demographic group in the United States, but very few own or shape the content that is produced. Instead, media is primarily owned by majority white corporations, where predominantly white, male CEOs and executives determine what is shown on television and in film. Currently, Black people reap very few financial rewards from the content they overwhelmingly consume and few have greenlighting power at networks, production companies, and studios.

But the television and film industry is facing a racial reckoning. Although there have been some improvements in representation on-screen over the last few years, rich, white, elite individuals still largely select the talent, broker the deals, and retain the power behind the scenes. Many of them have money, location, and connections on their side. They make a significant amount of income so there is no vital incentive to fundamentally change the business... except for the fact that – America is becoming more diverse. According to the #RepresentationMatters survey by the National Research Group, 82% of Americans want “diverse stories with characters that break racial stereotypes” and “66% of Americans believe the media perpetuates negative stereotypes of Black people” (Alexander, 2020). These critical insights are important for the entertainment business since Black audiences “consistently drive breakout hits and trending topics.” It behooves the television and film industry to increase the number of Black people in every facet of the business in order to better meet the needs of its top consumers.

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Asset Metadata

Creator Eunice, Michelle L. (author)

Core Title Pathway programs for HBCU students in television & film…

School Annenberg School for Communication

Degree Master of Arts

Degree Program Public Relations and Advertising

Degree Conferral Date 2023-05

Publication Date 04/06/2023

Defense Date 03/31/2023

Publisher University of Southern California (original), University of Southern California. Libraries (digital)

Tag DEI,DEI pipeline programs,diverse directors,diverse executives,diverse film program,diverse pipeline,diverse TV program,diverse writers,diversity,diversity pipeline programs,Entertainment,equity,Film,film school,HBCU,HBCU entertainment pipeline programs,HBCU film school,HBCU pathway programs,HBCU pipeline programs,HBCUs,historically black college and university,historically Black colleges and universities,inclusion,OAI-PMH Harvest,pathway programs,pipeline,pipeline programs,representation,Television,TV

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