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).a. ,I NAME OF INTERVIEWER: Huebner
I h , DATE OF IHTERVIEW: 5/31/91
I c.. ~ LENGTH OF INTERVIEW: 2-1/2 hours
I oL NQ'.If:S:
J. I.D. CODE: Huebner 001
E, ~: Male
l/ I
~: White
£, Mra:
fp, DIVISION: West Valley
7, ~URRE:H'.I RANKL.ASSI~NME:H'.I:
8, MISC. PERSONAL BACKGROUND:
9~ MISC. L.A.P.p. BACKGROUNQ:
/~, FIELQ '.IBAINING -- SELE;CTION OF F.T.O.s:
When he was selected:
(1) had to take pass/fail written exam,
(2) those who passed placed into 3 pools (outstanding,
excellent, better-luck-next-time), and
(3) as f .t.o.s needed, selected through oral
exam/interview from outstanding pool; after
outstanding pool exhausted, drew from excellent
pool .
[Huebner 001] 1
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Now, applicants take pass/fail written exam and then oral
exam/interview; selections made by captain based on oral
interviews. No separate applicant pools anymore. However, if
someone has more toan ten years experience on the force, he/she
does not have to take the written test.
Thinks selection standards are too low; too many
inexperienced officers are becoming field training officers. He
described a female officer in West Valley who became an f. t. o.
after only 2 years in the field; not effective; not a good
teacher. He believes that officers should be required to have at
least 4 years in the field before becoming field training officers.
He had 5-1/2 years experience in the field; still felt
inexperienced.
FIELD TRAINING -- TRAINING OF F.T.O.s:
F.t.o. school is a relatively new phenomenon. Attendance is
supposed to be encouraged, but is not mandatory. Many f .t.o.s do
not attend at all. Most f .t.o.s do not attend until years after
beginning to function as field training officers. No requirement
that f .t.o.s attend school before beginning service as f .t.o.
There was no f.t.o. school when he become an f.t.o.; did not
attend f .t.o. school until about 5 years after becoming an f .t.o.
FIELD TRAINING -- MISCONPUCT BY I DISCIPLINE OF F.T.O.s:
[Had no anecdotes to relate re misconduct or discipline.]
FIELD TRAINING -- EVALUATION OF F.T.O.s' PERFORMANCE:
F. t. o. s are evaluated in the same manner and at the same
frequency as · other officers (2x per year). Those regular
evaluations contain comments about f .t.o. work, but there is no
special or separate evaluation of f .t.o.s' performance.
/'{, FIELD TRAINING -- ASSIGNMENT($) TO PROBATIONERS:
Assignments were made by his superiors; he had no input.
Probationers tended to be assigned to new f .t.o.s every deployment
period unless there was some problem that required continuity.
Thinks such rotation is good.
/0, FIELD TRAINING -- RELATIONSHIP WITH I TBAINING OF PROBATIONERS:
He made it a point not to review probationer's files;
preferred to make up his own mind about the probationer. First
thing many f .t.o.s do is to review probationers' files and call
prior f.t.o.s and instructors - for the buzz.
He molded his approach to the
personality, strengths, and weaknesses .
[Huebner 001] 2
particular probationer's
Spent a lot of time
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explaining approach, options, and attitude to probationers. Felt
it most important to build up probationers' confidence in their
position and abilities; cop without confidence can be a disaster.
Has little respect for the Academy. Believes that Academy
training is misdirected and incomplete. Believes that the Academy
exists to process rather than screen recruits; too many
unqualified and unacceptable recruits passed through.
Complains that 150 hours spent on conversational Spanish, but
less than 30 minutes total on wrestling and boxing. Recruits come
into the field with little or no confidence in their physical
ability to control suspects; this leads to over-reliance on
weapons, and to use of excessive force. Should be able to wrestle
suspects who offer token resistance.
/~, FIELD TRAINING -- EVALUATION OF fROBATIONERS:
Probationers are evaluated on numerous factors on a long form
every 2 weeks for the first 4 months in the field. Evaluations
slow to once monthly for rest of probation period. The forms are
discussed with the probationer, then sent in succession to
sergeant, watch commander, and captain, then put into probationer's
book. A book on each probationer is kept at the station.
The evaluations are long and detailed, but have little
practical use. Probationers are rarely terminated. He recalls
only one or two terminations in his 10 years experience as f. t. o .·
If a probationer is having personality conflicts with f.t.o.,
will be assigned to new f .t.o. If a probationer is having other
trouble, is likely to be kept with original f. t. o. rather than
rotated to new one. (Continuity is considered to be beneficial.)
/?, ROLL CALL TRAINING:
There is ·daily training at roll calls; 5 to 15 minutes
depending on topic. Could be brief lecture, videotape, guest
speaker, equipment check, or exercise that spills out into field.
He has -responsibility for his shift' s roll call training at West
Valley. Just had a session on community relations in which he
encouraged officers to be more friendly in their contacts with
citizens on the street. Thinks roll call training can be useful
as way of keeping officers up-to-date.
/~, USE OF FORCE:
Believes that outlawing the bar-arm choke hold has led to
increased use of force and to excessive use of force. Now there
are no intermediate steps before use of baton or deadly force .
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When he first joined the force, the baton was rarely used.
Officers wrestled suspects and used choke holds if necessary. Now
batons are used to.a much. The carotid hold is now considered
deadly force.
Carotid hold cuts off blood to brain; suspect blacks out very
quickly; not painful. Bar-arm choke hold cuts off air; works
more slowly; can be very painful. All but one of the people who
died from the choke holds were on PCP.
Believes that part of the reason for outlawing the bar-arm was
because many new officers simply cannot do it; are too small and
weak. All that smaller, weaker officers can do now is shoot
suspects or beat them senseless with batons. Even weaker officers,
however, should be able to use the carotid hold effectively.
Does not like the baton. Is really a lead pipe; can do
serious damage. When the switch was made from wooden stick to lead
baton, he was simply handed the baton with no training. When he
first used it, he smashed his own thumb and almost killed the
suspect.
/~ RODNEY KING INCIDENT:
Does not understand what happened in the King beating. Knows
and likes Sgt. Koons; does not know what happened to him. Sees
no justification for the extent of the beating .
Believes that Koons may have been so directly involved in
subduing King that he failed to take control of the situation and
failed to see that there were many other officers present to help.
Believes that Koons should have ordered individual officers to pin
King's arms and legs. Thinks it is bad for command officers to be
so directly involved in the fracas, unless absolutely necessary;
clouds judgment; prevents rationale review/command.
Believes that choke hold would have allowed officers to bring
situation under control more quickly and safely.
Is very upset by Gates' reaction to the "second" King
incident, involving the prostitute. Believes that Gates is now
driven solely by political considerations. Is incensed that
someone who swerved to hit a cop was released without even being
booked. Sees Gates' statements that such a release is common
procedure as nothing more than a cynical, bald-faced lie.
Originally supported Gates but now distrusts him; wants Gates out.
dOr CITIZEN COMPLAINTS:
[Did not discuss.]
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• {J/, INTERNAL DISCIPLINE:
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Sees a double~standard in LAPD discipline. Higher-ups are
taken care of, exempted from discipline. For example, if a patrol
officer had used a department computer to obtain information to use
against someone, as Bob Vernon did, the officer would have been
terminated or at least given many days off without pay. Vernon was
not punished.
Sees a lot of punishment of field officers as arbitrary,
disproportionate. Higher-ups handle field officers with
disrespect, suspicion. Clearly an "us" v. "them" attitude radiates
from staff cops about field cops.
:AJ, PROMOTION:
Patrol officers are not given sufficient opportunities for
promotion. To get promoted, you have to move into "squint jobs"
(staff positions). The result is that department officials end up
having little or no real field experience; top officials have no
clue as to what life is like in the field; that is why management
makes so many mistakes and says so many stupid things.
Gates is the quintessential "squint" paper-pusher. Promoted
through staff positions; little time in the field. Completely out
of touch with the field, regardless of what he says, because no
intuitive feel for the field. Sgt. Christine Romero is another
example of ~ rapid-riser with virtually no field experience.
BIG PROBLEM: LAPD does not teach or encourage leadership.
Rather, it cultivates managers and bureaucrats.
~a, ASSIGNMENTS/TRANSFERS:
[Did not discuss.]
~~. COMMUNITY POLICING I COMMUNITY RELATIONS:
Believes that officers should be more friendly and accessible
to citizens, but does not believe that LAPD can move to more
community-oriented approaches without more officers and resources.
Community policing eats up a lot of time and effort, and citizens
still expect cops to "deliver their product"--arrests and crime
control. Cannot do everything at once; already overworked.
overwork leads to burn-outs and explosions like the King incident.
GAYS/LESBIANS:
Believes he is more liberal than most officers; most of his
friends are not cops; has done two vice tours, and the experience
made him more tolerant about different kinds of people .
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What gays "do to each other" is repulsive to him, but he has
no objection to gays being cops. Is sure that there are already
a lot of gays on t~ force; no reason they cannot be good cops.
Only real contact with homosexuals has been with those he
arrested for lewd conduct during his vice tours. Says he assumes
that not all gays are like those arrestees.
Two civilian employees at West Valley are openly gay. They
taking ribbing but give it right back. Are accepted and have been
on the job for quite some time. Believes that gay officers'
experience would be the same -- some ribbing, some unpleasantness,
but general acceptance.
Believes that many of the female cops he knows are lesbians.
No one seems to care that they are lesbians.
~fo 1 WOMEN:
Has no objection to women being cops. Does see problems
arising from accepting small or weak cops, including banning of
choke holds, loss of confidence by small cops in their ability to
use physicality to assert control over situations (which affects
all cops), and too frequent resort to batons and guns. Recognizes
that his concerns impact female officers but believes that they are
not sexist based .
Believes that girls are not subject to the same physical
bullying and fighting as boys, and therefore are not raised to be
comfortable/confident in situations involving physical threats or
danger. Thinks extra attention needs to be .given to many female
recruits to develop necessary physical skills and confidence.
I)? RACIAL MINORITIES:
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Does not think that LAPD is inherently racist; close to half
of patrol officers are not white. Believes the lack of minorities
in top positions in the department arises in part from the bias
against promoting patrol officers.
Thinks most white officers are afraid of duty in black areas
because of the high crime levels and increased risk of harm to
cops; that fear is reflected in their own attitudes. Black cops
appear to share the fear. Does not know how to overcome the fear.
Even if you set up "sensi ti vi ty" sessions with community
leaders, the people you are likely to encounter on the street the
next day are not the community leaders but gang members and drug
dealers· .
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f'IO ATTITUDES/OPINIONS RE L.A.P.D.: o\l'.)1
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Used to be proud to be a cop; not proud anymore. Demoralized
by (1) the constant drum-beat in the press that cops are racist
brutes, (2) Gates' political gamesplaying, including the recent
release of Rodney King, and (3) the way higher-ups look down on
patrol officers.
Says he would move into a new line of work if he could; all
he knows is LAPP. Nevertheless, still appears to derive
satisfaction from his work.
:Aq < REFORM SUGGESTIONS :
(1) He would put many of the "special job" officers back into
the field where they belong. (Example of "special job" people --
DARE teachers; are currently more than 200 P3's who do nothing
other than teach DARE classes in school; good program but not
worth all that manpower.) Citizens are not getting their money's
worth; too many officers behind desks.
(2) He would give field officers promotion preference over
paper-pushers. The department is off track in its bias against
field officers. Management has "sanctimonious" view that patrol
officers are stupid and ·unambitious; management believes that the
cream rises to the top, and that officers who remain "on the
bottom" in patrol are "defective."
(3) He would require officers to have at least 4 years field
experience before becoming field training officers.
5o, MISCELLAHEOUS:
Believes Bob Vernon is an out-of-control madman; Vernon drags
his religion into the workplace and tries to push it on everybody
around him. Believes that Vernon is the root of a lot of the
primitive attitudes about gays, women, and minorities at the top
of the department; these attitudes set a negative tone for the
department as a whole .
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